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Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?
catholic-convert ^
| July 11, 2012
| Steve Ray
Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?
A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…
Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints cant do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!
Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?
An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the dead in Christ are those saints who have physically died. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thess 4:16).
THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE JESUS ALONE DOCTRINE. From some peoples point of view, people who have died are classified as dead saints, who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people dont want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, JESUS ALONE fails. If the so-called dead saints do anything then it is not JESUS ALONE, but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called dead saints are in fact not dead, but alive with God.
Dead or in paradise?
HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly dead saints who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no dead saint because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants
HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says Jesus is the god of the living. However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; He is not God of the dead but of the living.
- “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).
Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as dead saints.
Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?
WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than dead saints who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called dead saints; not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.
SORRY LEONARD
YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument. He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (Eccles 9:6).
When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the persons soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?
How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?
Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet (Kings 13:20-21).
Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It cant be much clearer than that!
The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ
JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE DEAD SAINTS. Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.
“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?
This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that dead saints cant do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.
So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; deadsaints; doctrine; prayer; scripture
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
So we believers (excluding Catholics?) have the authority to judge disputes between believers, as those believers have authority to judge disputes with us, or with other believers. Do Catholics take classes on how to put words in other people's mouths?
Believers are instructed to take their dispute first to the brother with whom they have the dispute. If he won't listen, then the believer is commanded to take 2-3 other believers with him to try to settle the dispute.
If that doesn't work, then he is to take it before the local body of believers.
Who has the authority to resolve disputes? Those who are spiritual. The answer which is found in Scripture.
441
posted on
07/14/2013 9:24:43 PM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: Salvation
I don’t see that the two things cancel each other out.
442
posted on
07/14/2013 9:27:26 PM PDT
by
Albion Wilde
("Remember... the first revolutionary was Satan."--Russian Orthodox Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov)
To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
So we believers (excluding Catholics?) have the authority to judge disputes between believers, as those believers have authority to judge disputes with us, or with other believers.You know, the average Spirit filled believer has enough guidance from the Holy SPirit and Scripture to settle disputes without some hierarchy of clergy holding their hand.
Honestly, is the nothing that the average Catholic is capable of doing without being told by the Church that they're not good enough, or capable, or whatever? The Catholic church clearly doesn't trust its adherents to have the discernment of an ice cube.
443
posted on
07/14/2013 9:27:46 PM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: JCBreckenridge; CynicalBear
The assembly I belong to Ok, whats it called? Whats the name for it?
CynicalBear belongs to the same assembly as I do...
444
posted on
07/14/2013 9:29:25 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Iscool
So, then. Give me a phone number. :)
445
posted on
07/14/2013 9:34:22 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: JCBreckenridge
Bible says he came to build the Church with St. Peter as the head of His church here on earth.Bible doesn't say that at all...
446
posted on
07/14/2013 9:37:34 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Iscool
Yeah, he did. “Upon this rock I will build my church - talking to St. Peter, himself.”
I realize you interpret this passage contrary to what the text actually says, but then, you didn’t write the text so you are free to interpret however you fancy.
447
posted on
07/14/2013 9:40:23 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: JCBreckenridge
Point still stands. Show me the catalog of books since you say scripture alone is infalliable.God said he'd preserve his words forever...I believe him...
Has anyone proven that any of the 66 books of the Protestant bible don't belong there???
Nope...
Has anyone proven the extra books in the Catholic bible don't belong there...
Yessirree...
Those extra books are proven to be wrong geographically, contain contradictions and outright untruths...
So we can rest assured that they were not put there under God's guidance or inspiration...
448
posted on
07/14/2013 9:51:30 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Iscool
“Has anyone proven that any of the 66 books of the Protestant bible don’t belong there”
Has anyone proven that the book of mormon doesn’t belong there?
449
posted on
07/14/2013 9:56:37 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Where in the Bible does it say that 'the Bible alone' is the sole rule of faith?"What is a 'rule of faith'???
I know that without the bible, there'd be nothing but paganism...And I know that without the Catholic religion we'd still have the bible and Christianity...
450
posted on
07/14/2013 9:58:46 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: editor-surveyor
Utter nonsense.
In I Tim 3:15 the word church in the phrase “church of hte living God” is ‘ekklesia’ the standard word for church in the New Testament.
If St. Paul had meant ‘synagogue’, that is itself a Greek word.
It it the Church of the living God which is the pillar and the ground of the truth.
451
posted on
07/14/2013 9:59:20 PM PDT
by
newberger
(Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.)
To: JCBreckenridge
Again, there wasnt an apostolic canon.By the time Marcion came on the scene, the entire bible had been preached to countless people in the known world...
God said he'd preserve his words...I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where Jesus told the apostles and desciples, 'Good luck figuring all this out'...And I didn't see where Jesus told anyone they would be leaderless in knowing what to teach and preach for a few hundred years when the Catholic religion would figure it out for him and let them know...
452
posted on
07/14/2013 10:05:44 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: metmom; All
Most of the religion threads are chock full of “I got you’ isms and arguments by assertion but this one seems unusually so.
It would be refreshing to see a bit of logical thought follow the Scriptural quotes...for example the apostle Paul told Timothy that the church was a pillar and ground of the truth. (1 Tim. 3:15) but why go that next step and show what that “truth” was?
“Your word is truth”, said Jesus (John 17:17) referring to the Hebrew or OT Scriptures.
So for this thread that's already more than I intended. Cheers!
453
posted on
07/14/2013 10:07:27 PM PDT
by
count-your-change
(you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
To: Biggirl
My opinion??? You want to show us in the scriptures where Mary is sinless??? You want to show us where Peter became a pope, or even suggested such a thing, or where purgatory is???
It has nothing to do with opinion...
454
posted on
07/14/2013 10:16:11 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Biggirl
It is rather a family tree and a community of faith.What do you mean by a 'family tree' and a 'community of faith'...Faith in what???
455
posted on
07/14/2013 10:21:01 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Iscool
“told anyone they would be leaderless in knowing what to teach and preach for a few hundred years when the Catholic religion would figure it out for him”
You’re right about that. Which is why the Catholic church teaches Apostolic succession - that the authority of the magisterium derives from the Apostles. The Apostles ordained bishops who ordained other bishops and so on and so forth.
The question I have for you - is if you sincerely believe that the children of God would not be left leaderless, how do you cross that 15 hundred year gap between Christ and Luther? I’m curious.
456
posted on
07/14/2013 10:22:26 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: count-your-change
Which is why Jesus left a book catalog telling people which books were inspired.
457
posted on
07/14/2013 10:23:28 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: what's up
"...no saint whether on earth or in Heaven is Omni-present. Saints in Heaven cannot hear every prayer on earth. Only God has the power to do that." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Does an All-Powerful God have enough power to choose to enable some of His creatures to hear as many prayers as God wants them to hear, or does an All-Powerful God NOT have enough power to enable that?
458
posted on
07/14/2013 10:26:40 PM PDT
by
Heart-Rest
(Good reading ==> | ncregister.com | catholic.com | ewtn.com | newadvent.org |)
To: metmom; Biggirl
Wrong because we can ask other living on this planet believers to pray for us without having to do it through the spiritual realm. We can do it by means of physically talking to them, or writing them notes. We do not have to do it outside the physical realm.Exactly...We (and they) don't know for certain that anyone we might pray to in heaven is actually there...Aside from Jesus, that is...
459
posted on
07/14/2013 10:26:43 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: CynicalBear
You quote from the book of Ecclesiastes --
"Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." This obviously conflicts with the words of Jesus in Luke 6:23 about some of the dead -- "your reward is great in heaven".
The book of Ecclesiastes also says that all the works done under the sun are vanity. (Ecclesiastes 1:14, and in many other texts in that book.) Does "all" there really mean "all"?
Was the birth of Jesus vanity?
Were the works of Jesus vanity?
Were the crucifixion and death of Jesus vanity?
Was His resurrection vanity?
The book of Ecclesiastes must be read as part of the poetic wisdom writing, written from a particular perspective, and with a specific knowledge base, realizing it often uses poetic exaggerations to make teaching points. (otherwise, you would be calling Jesus a liar, and saying His work was all vanity, just like everything else.)
460
posted on
07/14/2013 10:28:37 PM PDT
by
Heart-Rest
(Good reading ==> | ncregister.com | catholic.com | ewtn.com | newadvent.org |)
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