Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
Thanks...These people ought to stick with what they know, whatever that is...
It’s kinda foolish to get into a discussion with a bunch of bible believing Christians when all you are armed with is your own man made logic and some Catholic church history...
I surely do.
I'm just not convinced that the promises He made concerning His church mean the Catholic church. Matter of fact, since Jesus did not come to establish a religious system and I see the history and fruit of Catholicism, I'm convinced that it's not.
placemarker
Not so much...The Pentecostal groups I am familiar with believe you can lose your salvation but they counter that by repenting and asking Jesus to save them all over again....Without works, as the Catholic religion falsely teaches...
All that is true...But since the words of God in the scriptures condemns your religious practices, we know for certain that yours is not the Church Jesus was referring to...
That wasn't the issue although that is an argument of its own...The issue is you guys claim that your 'traditions' are equal with scripture and that while the bible is the written word of God, there are other teachings of God pertaining to your religion that are just as authoritative as the scriptures...And my response was:
"If you want to put an legitimacy to your claim, show us what God has done outside the scriptures pertaining to your religion...Otherwise, you may as well be blowing bubbles..." "So what did Jesus tell you guys that he didn't write in the scriptures??? You got anything??? Anything at all???"
You posted my question but you immediately veered off the path of the conversation and started talking about your version of the scriptures which has been proven over and over again to not be inspired by God...
So what teaching outside of the scriptures has God given to your religion??? When did it happen, what was it and to whom was it revealed???
Therefore, the claim such folks make about not having come to Christ thanks to the work of The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church Jesus Christ Himself founded is a deliberate falsehood or proof that they're blinded by a powerful delusion.
Of course, those who only accept the Pharisee Approved Luther Subset of Scripture refuse to accept the same Scripture Christ and the Apostles used and quoted so they have all sorts of things they claim aren't in the Bible after first throwing out part of the Bible.
A clear cut case of people who follow Eve and worship their own, Most High and Holy Self.
Waiting for an answer placemarker......
you better hunt for some No-Doz...
Huh?!
Actually no...We are showing you what God says, not what he means...God is more than capable of interpreting his own scripture...
He was just a little tricky when he put the bible together...He requires that a person search, prove and believe the scriptures like the Bereans did to put it together...
And that itself is a man's interpretation like that which you accuse the evil Catholic Church of doing. Your very own vicious circle, as I said.
No, Iscool, you got it backwards. The problem is NOT with the Pentacostals who believe they can lose their salvation (or the Methodists and others -- see for example this "Wesleyan" UMC web site) :
http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=4746357&ct=5571239
Rather, the problem would be with those of you who believe in the Calvinist idea of once saved / always saved. You believe that once you are saved, there is absolutely nothing you can do to lose it.
If the Methodists and Pentacostals and Adventists (and Catholics) and others are right, you CAN lose your salvation after you've "been saved". That means you could be jeopardizing your very souls by living a profligate, sinful life, thinking you are saved and safe, but if they are right, you could actually be throwing your salvation away, dooming yourself to hell forever.
And what exactly is that "Pharisee Approved LUTHER Subset of Scripture", Rash? Have you forgotten already that we have discussed this point many, many times and that Luther did NOT remove ANY of the books that Catholics think are "Scripture"? Why must you guys persist in that falsehood? Do you actually think it adds to your veracity in these discussions? It doesn't.
And, just what doctrines exactly do you imagine "we" claim aren't in this "Catholic" approved Bible that would make us throw books out in the first place? I've asked you this before and never did hear your answer. Could be a clear cut case of people who worship their church.
Amen, FRiend! That hymn is so rich in truth. Many people know the words. I wonder how many understand its meaning.
Keep on smearing that Superslick Christian Liberty Grease around the same way it's smeared around to rationalize murdering infants in the womb. Yup, good old Superslick CLG let's the chemical abortion crowd slide right past throwing out part of the Bible and pretend personal interpretatin of what's in he Pharisee Approved Luther Subset of Scripture is really the same thing as accepting all of Scripture as The Word of God.
The strong delusion of Superslick CLG that excuses murdering infants in the womb, throwing out Scripture, queers marrying one another, premarital sex, and anything else that popular opinion wants. Poor Self-Alone folks just love their Self Worship
Such silliness. I’m afraid you don’t know the first thing of Calvinism. Anyone who believes Calvinism leads to a profligate sinful lifestyle doesn’t understand Calvinism. Once you understand grace and what God has done for you and in you, your sin comes to make you sick. This side of eternity that sin nature will still be there, but you come to hate your sin. That’s part of being born again. God takes out that heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh.
Also, the Bible is replete with passages teaching the perseverance of the saints. If you understood how God saves sinners you would understand this great truth. It makes sense that non-reformed theologies would lead to the conclusion that salvation can be lost because they believe salvation is up to the individual rather than the Lord. But that is not what Scripture teaches. The Bible teaches that “salvation is of The Lord.” (Jonah 2:9)
The Bible tells us that God chose a people before the foundation of the world, to wit:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love (Ephesians 1:3-4)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Romans 8-29-30)
The Bible also teaches clearly that what God starts He finishes:
Psa 138:8 The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
Isa 46:4 even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.
Jer 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Phi 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Of all those called of God, not one will be lost:
Joh 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith:
1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Heb 3:14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Rev 21:7-8 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere:
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
1Co 1:30-31 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain - if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith - just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
1Th 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
Heb 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
Jud 1:24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
I pray for you to study your Bible instead of listening to Rome.
Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Right - Calvinists can't sin anymore. (And B.O. is a great president.)
You're missing the point badly. Calvinists believe they cannot lose their salvation, while Methodists, Adventists, some Pentacostals, and many other Protestants believe that that Calvinist view is utter, pure nonsense, and that you most certainly can lose your salvation. That is the point -- Protestants do not agree on that most important question of of all Christians.
I'll try to check back tomorrow to see if you reply, but I would like to point out that brevity is the soul of wit.
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