Posted on 06/22/2013 1:01:24 PM PDT by NYer
23. Hold fast these traditions undefiled and, keep yourselves free from offense. Sever not yourselves from the Communion; deprive not yourselves, through the pollution of sins, of these Holy and Spiritual Mysteries. And the God of peace sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit, and soul, and body be preserved entire without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Thessalonians 5:23:— To whom be glory and honour and might, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and world without end. Amen.
Lecture 23 paragraph 23
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310123.htm
See post #119
Well, we agree! Some things you can try to prove, but ultimately the other person is either going to accept it or not. I feel the same way as you about proving that the words of the Bible were inspired by God. Likewise, He also gave teaching authority to the Catholic Church to select the inspired books of the canon and to teach Sacred Tradition. Both are equally important. You either accept it or not.
I also will say a few words here and there in these sorts of threads as a Jewish convert to the one true Faith, the Catholic Faith. People may not listen and can think I’m wrong, but I’m still going to scatter the seeds and then I’ll dust off my sandals. I certainly will not get drawn into the so-called “debates” that is more about putting the other person down.
They’re not really difficult questions.
They’re incriminating.
You wrote:
“Of course it can. The church is people. Take away the people and you have no church.”
The Church is not just people. The Church is the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ.
“What the people do is what the church does, unless the people are not the church.”
No. What people do is what people do. I, for instance, might commit a crime, but no one should blame America for the crime I commit even though someone could say “America is people”.
“If the people go wrong, the church has gone wrong.”
Nope. The Church existed before their generation and will exist after their generation.
“You can’t have a right church with wrong people in it.”
Sure you can. If you can’t then every Church is wrong and all will be forever because all people are wrong in some way at most likely all times.
“Besides, Jesus will not tolerate it.”
Wrong again. Jesus has not destroyed all of us. Clearly He is much more tolerant than you give Him credit for.
“He didn’t in Revelation when He chastised the seven churches there and how many of them are in existence today?”
And yet there are literally millions more churches (or sects) like those in Revelation which He has not destroyed.
Do you even think about what you post before you post it?
They aren’t difficult questions and they have been answered. Sacred Tradition is found in the teachings of the Catholic Church. You just choose not to believe it. Just like some folks choose not to believe that the Bible was inspired by God.
And just where does the person get the information in the first place.
I think what people fail to see is the difference between being familiar with a written work to recognize errors in implementation of it, and correcting a written work based on oral teaching.
Since the written work is WRITTEN down, it can be referred back to for veracity. That cannot happen with oral tradition unless that oral tradition is immediately and faithfully recorded. At which point, it becomes a written work that can be checked for fidelity.
oooops.
Not only is this not an answer, but it also misrepresents the Catholic position. Catholics do not claim the Church is infallible because Scripture says so. The Church is infallible because Jesus said so. The Church was established and functioning as the infallible spokesperson for the Lord decades before the New Testament was written.
7
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed
Do you have an evidence that this is so and that this technique was what was used on or with Scripture?
And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
If we apply the same principle of exegesis to this text that the Protestant does to 2 Timothy 3:16, then we would have to say that all we need is patience (steadfastness) to be perfected. We don’t need faith, hope, charity, the Church, baptism, or anything else.
There has been no response to this part of Tim Staples' argument. He took one verse out of the Bible and by doing so it appears that all we really need is patience, not Scripture to make us "complete" and "perfect". Perhaps we don't even need Scripture!
you wrote:
“Except that there’s no such thing as purgatory.”
Yes, there is.
“Not one verse of Scripture supports the doctrine.”
Actually a number of verses do.
“On the contrary, Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and in Hebrews, that it is appointed to men once to die and after this the judgment.”
One of the problems Protestants have when discussing Christian doctrines is their own ignorance about them. I can’t tell you how many times Protestants have attacked doctrines they clearly do not understand. You’re doing it right now.
1) St. Paul was right for what he was speaking about to whom he was speaking. That in no way negates the reality of Purgatory. Go back and read verse 1 of that passage and you’ll see St. Paul is talking about the glorified body we will receive after death (”For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”). He’s not denying Purgatory. He’s affirming the Resurrection.
2) The idea “that it is appointed to men once to die and after this the judgment” also in no way negates the reality of Purgatory. We are judged and, if Purgatory is necessary, we undergo it.
“I suppose that when many Catholics are suffering torment in hell, they’ll need to console themselves that it is only temporary even though it’s not.”
I suppose that when many Protestants are suffering torment in hell they’ll fail to console themselves with the claim that they didn’t really know they were attacking Christ’s Church.
Such as?
Hades is not hell.
Hades is a waiting place for the dead that people who lived before Christ waited. There is no Scriptural reference to being purged from sin. Yes, Jesus did descend to Hades. It says so and says that He was not abandoned to it.
In the account of the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham says this.....
Luke 16:22-26 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
There's no getting out of whereever you end up on Hades. You can't cross over.
Hades has yet to be thrown into the lake of fire.
As far as suffering to cleanse from sin, that is completely unscriptural. It's only the shedding of blood that cleanses from sin.
Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
And once sin has been forgiven, it's gone. There's nothing left to pay for.
Hebrews 9-11-14 11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Hebrews 9:24-28 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:11-1811 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
No more offering. Suffering can't do it because it isn't adequate.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The wages we get for our sin is death.
Galatians 2:20-21 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
If righteousness could be gained by ANYTHING but Christ, Christ died for nothing. But it can't, therefore the death of Christ was necessary.
Sounds like people figure they can sin and just pay it off in purgatory. Since they know they're saved anyway, they can go ahead and sin with impunity. Hey, they're saved anyway, right? It just takes them a little longer to get there.
And Christians are condemned for a cavalier attitude toward sin because they believe that once saved, always saved? The hypocrisy abounds.
It's not oral tradition. Matter of fact, it's not tradition at all. It's direct divine revelation that Paul wrote down.
How about answering the first part of the question?
I notice that every time the question is asked of what those teachings are, NOBODY ever answers it.
As far as the claim that God promised to keep the oral teaching from corruption, that is not what those verses say.
John 14:25-2625 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
That verse can only apply to those disciples to whom Jesus was directly speaking as nobody else heard the words that He said to them. John 16:13 is no promise of protecting oral tradition from corruption either.
There is no way to protect oral tradition from corruption and the attempt to claim it by the Catholic church falls flat because it is not even consisten4t with itself throughout its own history, much less with Scripture.
trebb asked some very relevant and interesting questions. To refresh your memory.....I guess a better question would be, "What does the Bible lack that would keep an interested person from reading, understanding, and appreciating the Good News of the Gospels. What does it lack to keep a person from making the decision to accept Christ as the Savior?"
So just where is Scripture lacking and why and why would anyone even think so?
There are plenty of references on the net to RABBINIC JUDAISM, and if you read my post far enough, that’s how the Chinese languages are maintained ~ with an oral tradition supplemented with text in a totally different language (the character language). Over 1 billion people do it that way.
Even the words of Jesus as written down.........
I would hope the Pope uses the Bible to guide his counsel to everybody. Makes sense. The Reverend Jim Jones, one of those people I happened to know on my way up ~ (bwahahahaha) ~ misused the Bible.
You may discover (soon) that you need to bracket your paragraph with (/s)
BTW, the words of Isiah about ‘.... mighty, counselor.....’ popped up today on a Messianic jewish show I encountered riffling the channels ~ and I remembered what was probably my only original thought on a Triune God with His feet planted across the entirity of Space and Time ~ that He heard Handel’s Messiah, loved the music, was mightily impressed, and went back and made sure the prophets were properly inspired, as were KIng Jame’s translators!
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