Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: sasportas
I really hate making long posts like these, but your post calls for an answer.

1. What you call "Mariolatry"

Luke 1:28-30 "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God."

Luke 1:41-43 "And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Luke 1:48 "Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

2. Priests

John 20:21-23 "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

3. CELIBATE Priests

Matthew 19:12 "For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

1 Corinthians 7:8 "But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I."

1 Corinthians 7:32-33 "But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided."

It's true that St. Peter and most of the Apostles were married. The celibacy rule could be changed. But we prefer for our priests to follow the example set by Jesus and St. Paul.

4. Rosary beads were, I believe, used by the Dominicans or the Franciscans beginning in the Middle Ages, but that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not praying the Rosary is a worthy practice. It's like asking, "When did the Founding Fathers ever recite the Pledge of Allegiance?". Obviously, the Founding Fathers never recited the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge of Allegiance didn't exist until 1892. Does that mean the Pledge of Allegiance is un-American?

5. Infant baptism is suggested when St. Paul says he baptized the household of Stephanas in 1 Corinthians, but I know you won't accept that. We do have more solid documentation of infant baptism from St. Hippolytus of Rome and from Origen, both writing in the 3rd century, well before 311, which is the year you think "Constantine established the Catholic Church". (Not that you'd accept those writings, either.)

6. Praying the Dead Out of Purgatory

2 Timothy 1:16-18 "The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorous: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest."

This was a prayer offered by St. Paul for his dead friend Onesiphorous.

888 posted on 06/02/2013 1:06:18 AM PDT by RPTMS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 885 | View Replies ]


To: RPTMS

Correction: Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313, not 311.


889 posted on 06/02/2013 1:21:24 AM PDT by RPTMS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 888 | View Replies ]

To: RPTMS
The celibacy rule could be changed.

HMMMmmm...

Rule changing is FUN!

Just ask the Supreme Court!

918 posted on 06/02/2013 5:39:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 888 | View Replies ]

To: RPTMS; sasportas; metmom; boatbums
1. What you call "Mariolatry"

While Mary was a blessed and graced (which all believers are: Eph. 1:6) holy women and virtuous mother of the Christ, neither Luke or any other writer supports her as one sinless or bodily assumed, and second in position after the Lord, with almost unlimited power, and prayed to, or other like things ascribed to her which parallel Christ and almost make her a 4th person of the Godhead. The specious extrapolation of texts which RCs must engage in attempting to such testifies to it being a tradition that is not in Scripture, and is overall contrary to it.

2. Priests

Nowhere does the Holy Spirit refer to NT pastors as priests (hiereus), except as part of the general priesthood (hierateuma) of believers, (1Pt. 2:9) who are also called to render sacrifices. (Rm. 12:1; Heb. 13:15)

And see here before trying to defend the migration of presbuteros into priest.

3. CELIBATE Priests

Again you are trying to extrapolate sanction for celibacy into a requirement that requires that all (with exceptions for married pastoral converts) clergy to have the gift of singleness/continence.

While certainly being advantageous, this condition is not a requirement, and instead the requirements for clergy assume they are married, (1Tim. 3:1-7) and the only two single pastors recorded in Scripture were traveling missionary apostles. And who yet had freedom to marry. (1Cor. 9:5) Thus single pastors are the exception, not the rule as in Rome.

But we prefer for our priests to follow the example set by Jesus and St. Paul.

Commendable, but besides Paul being relatively marginalized compared to Mary and Peter, and despite his stature being such that he might be called (in satire) "pope Paul ," he typically supported himself, and is the one who set down the aforementioned requirements for clergy.

4. Rosary beads

For which you wisely do not attempt to support by Scripture, as there is zero mention of such, nor of prayers to Mary or need for such, while in principle it fosters rote repetition of prayers which the Lord warned against, besides the admonition against ostentatious religious clothing to command respect which the beads are often part of.

5. Infant baptism is suggested when St. Paul says he baptized the household of Stephanas in 1 Corinthians

Out of which is extrapolated infant baptism, yet all Paul says is that he baptized also the household of Stephanas, (1Cor. 1:16) likewise in Acts 16:15, while in the account where any more detail of a household baptism is given then it indicates the baptized were able to hear/understand the word. (Acts 16:32,33)

In addition, the requirements which God sets down as a prerequisite for baptism, that of repentance and wholehearted faith, (Acts 2:28; 8:36,37) cannot be met by infants. Who, being innocent, are not accountable for Adam's sin and need to be redeemed.

6. Praying the Dead Out of Purgatory. 2 Timothy 1:16-18..This was a prayer offered by St. Paul for his dead friend Onesiphorous.

More unwarranted conclusions. Paul's is not praying for Onesiphorous, whom you can only assume was dead, yet Paul salutes his household in 2 Tim. 4:19, and he was quite active recently.

And his hope that he expressed to Timothy is not that of God having mercy on him as he suffers torments or purifying punishments in purgatory, but of God having mercy on him at the judgment of Christ, "that day" (1Ths. 5:4; 2Tim. 1:8; 4:8) which takes place at the Lord's return, not at the believers death. (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)

Thus, rather than showing these traditions are found in Scripture, they are exposed for what the are, mere traditions of men taught as rules or doctrines.

928 posted on 06/02/2013 10:08:32 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 888 | View Replies ]

To: RPTMS

A simple test for these “proofs” you give for RCC Mariolatry, priests, celibacy, etc., is the book of Acts. You don’t find Mariolatry, priests, etc., things that identify the RCC, there. You quoted from the gospels and the epistles, so do the cults to allegedly “prove” their beliefs and pracitices, the book of Acts, however, is where the rubber meets the road. The book of Acts is where we should see what we claim in the gospels and epistles played out in real time.

RCC Mariolatry, for instance, is not in the book of Acts. Anybody with half a brain can see that. With all the emphasis Romanists place on Mary, we should see it pop up somewhere in Acts… if it were a true belief held by the Apostles. The same with all these other things the RCC is known for.

Since evidence for the RCC is not there, it follows that the RCC practices and beliefs they are known for everywhere are products of compromise with the pagan world, taking many years to evolve. In the case of such things as rosary beads centuries. The book of Acts full name is, of course, “The Acts of the Apostles.” Anybody can claim apostolicity for their particular practices and beliefs, but can they find it in the Acts of the Apostles? Acts renders RCC “Apostolic” claims bogus.


936 posted on 06/02/2013 11:00:26 AM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 888 | View Replies ]

To: RPTMS; sasportas
Jesus disagreed with the words spoken about Mary and said those who believed were the ones who were blessed.

Luke 11:27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,

Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.

973 posted on 06/02/2013 1:54:29 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 888 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson