Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.
However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.
Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.
"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."
The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."
"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio.
"Just do good" was his challenge, "and we'll find a meeting point."
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...
Here are the Pope's actual words. The words "heaven", "salvation", and "saved" don't even appear in the text. How anyone could conclude from this that Pope thinks atheists can work their way to heaven ... beats me.
He's not the theologian BXVI was, I'll grant you, but give the man a little credit: he knows what Pelagianism is, and why it's wrong.
Ummm K.
But, an atheist has no faith.
In fact, from their reasoned point of view they have trouble on exactly which God to place their faith in.
Buddha? Naw! I don’t believe in nothingness but, if I had to make a choice more closely aligned with my beliefs....
Hinduism? Can’t, I luv steak.
Islam? Which brand? Whabbism? Suhfi? Shiite?Go. Goat herder ?
Shinto? luv the Ginsu Knives.
Mormonism? Being a god myself sounds interesting. But, I’ve heard I have to pass by Joseph Smith, who will check my passport and see if I am worthy and well qualified. Notwithstanding that little part that God says “There is none worthy, no not one”. Wasn’t that Christ’s or Saint Peter’s Job?
Maybe I try Protestantism? Which brand? Lutheran? Pentecostal? Joseph Smith was given a vision that all religions were abominations and, Dark, Apostate and Whores of Babylon.
Hell, the Protestants say that the Catholic Church is the vile belief system discussed in Revelations.
No, an aethiest isn’t just divorced from God so much as he is agnostic and indifferent .
No atheist will come to God by Jesus and therefore their salvation is synthetic on one hand and arrogant in the face of God, if he could face God without shielding his eyes from God’s glory.
Nor even close! There are four qualifications that must be met for a Papal teaching to be considered infallible. This meets, at best, only one of the four.
He said nothing like that. I posted a link to his actual words above. Go read them yourself.
The Gospel also informs us that we may fully know God as He intends only by believing in and following Christ. Natural law and reason alone are not enough to attain such an understanding. Christian faith and practice are required.
This line of reasoning offers a resolution of the long and vexatious controversy as to whether those who lived before Christ or who do not know otherwise know and follow Him may be saved. Thus, although rejecting Christ forfeits the deeper knowledge of God and the grace that Christianity offers, one who adheres to the principles that God has laid out through natural law may still be saved.
As stated by Pope John Paul II, "the followers of other religions can receive Gods grace and be saved by Christ apart from the ordinary means which he has established," meaning the Christian faith. (Letter to the Bishop Delegates to the Fifth Plenary Assembly of the federation of Asian Bishops' Conferences, 23 June 1990.)
Notably, the same apostolic letter also states that "It is a contradiction of the Gospel and of the Churchs very nature to assert, as some do, that the Church is only one way of salvation among many, and that her mission towards the followers of other religions should be nothing more than to help them be better followers of those religions." The passage from John that you cite is taken as authoritative toward this end.
The Catholics on FR are pretty intent on keeping Christ and heaven to themselves.
&&&
I have not observed that.
At any rate, to the current topic: I recall being taught in Catholic school that anyone who lives a good life is doing the will of God. Those who have never been baptized and who do not know of Christ but live as good humans gain the Baptism of Desire.
Hmmm...
Now it makes sense. I was confused, that Pope would ever say one could be saved by works.
Thnx
You make good points, but my response was more general. I meant children to mean that we are all creations of the Father.
When I think of atheists I know, they are very different. One lacks the gift of faith, while another appears prideful and presumptuous.
The first does good for good sake, and tries to live (unknowingly) according to the natural law. The second does good, but makes the point of his atheism.
In viewing these two cases, I can see how God is trying to call both to himself, though I can see Him more generous to first. Think invincible ignorance vs. pride.
Unless a man be born again....
^^^
What of those people who were born before Jesus came to earth?
What if an atheist did something, not knowing or being able to know it was good, but a Christian thought the act was good?
No it doesn’t. It means the author if this article is a liar.
What if the atheist doesn’t know he is doing the work of God?
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Of course, we can not assume all other people fall into this "ignorant" category (and I would argue that most people do not in this day and age), so I still believe it is wrong to include atheists and other "unbaptized" as "children of God".
He said nothing like that. I posted a link to his actual words above. Go read them yourself.
**
Aw, you’re no fun, Campion! Why read what the pope has actually said when one can just spout off lies and bigotry about the Church?
I will pray for this troubled Catholic hater.
I’ve heard atheist here on FR say that they can do good, without believing in God.
I don’t see why not.
Despite its claims of clarity and conformity, Rome itself iws significantly subject to interpretations (including what is infallible and its meaning) to varying degrees, both allowed and that which is tolerated, and modern teaching often suffers from ambiguity.
Regarding atheists being saved, as reported here ,
Cardinal George Pell had suggested that there will be those who were atheists in this life who will be in heaven.
Cardinal O'Connor has something similar to say:
Q: And hell?
A: We're not bound to believe that anybodys there, let's face it. ...
Q: It is sometimes said that there will be a separate heaven for Bavarians because they would not be in a state of eternal happiness if they had to share heaven with the Prussians. Will Catholics and Protestants be together in heaven? A: I hope they won't be separate. I think that the divisions manifest here on earth will be reconciled in some mysterious way in heaven. I'm not thinking just of Catholics and Protestants, but people of other faiths and people of no faith. We are all children of God.
Q: So we shouldn't be surprised if we were to meet in heaven someone who was a Muslim or an atheist on earth?
A: I hope I will be surprised in heaven... I think I will be.
On this subject, one can teach along the line of, "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life," (Romans 2:7) as meaning that obeying the light you have leads to more light ("And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given" -Mark 4:24).
So that, as with lost but pious Cornelius, one can hear "words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. " (Acts 11:14)
Yet Francis seems quite loose in his theology, or at least his expression of it, likely being much less of a theological than one who focus on the result. But doctrine comes first.
Here, he may not be teaching atheists can be saved because of their works, but from what we read (which is insufficient) he sounds that way, and which i also think is a manifestation of the institutional over reaction against sola fide, as if that teaches that the faith that justifies is not one that effects works.
Rome often emphasizes works and merit in such a way that it typically blurs the distinction btwn what actually appropriates justification, (which Rome allows can be without works yet still is based on one's holiness), and the resultant works which justify one as having true faith. And are rewarded due to God's faithfulness under grace, who rewards faith, (Heb. 10:35) though what the redeemed really deserve is the lake of fire. (Rm. 6:23; Rv. 10:14,15)
But faith and works go together, like light and heat, and Reformers emphasized the need for such faith, and evangelicals testify to greater commitment and faith that produces works and Biblical moral views than Catholics overall.
Just a general comment to posters like yourself (and it’s not meant to be uncharitable). I would be better able to respond to posts if they were brief and to the point. The format here in this forum makes it difficult enough to read the shorter posts. I wish they would upgrade it.
I think they can do good as well, but if we’re honest we know that what we think is good is much different than what they think is good sometimes. For example, an atheist would think it good to escort women to an abortion clinic for an abortion.
I don’t know.
I shouldn’t pretend I know much about anything.
Right now I just know I would love to have a pizza.
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