Posted on 04/08/2013 9:22:31 AM PDT by DouglasKC
"I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).
Jesus Christ proclaimed, almost 2,000 years ago, "I will build My church." He declared that His Church would never die out, promising that "the gates of Hades [the grave] shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18).
As we will see in the pages that follow, the institution to which Jesus referred was not an earthly building or a mere physical organization. Rather, the Church was and remains the called-out assembly of Christ's spiritually transformed and faithful followers.
Jesus assured His disciples that He would guide and preserve His Church until His return, promising them, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).
What happened to the Church Jesus built? An eyewitness tells us that immediately after Christ ascended into heaven following His resurrection, His apostles "went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs" (Mark 16:20). The Church had a powerful beginning.
Millions of people profess Christianity; they claim to be members of the Church Jesus founded. But Christianity is a divided religion, comprising hundreds of denominations and schisms. Through the centuries, most of Christianity's branches have assimilated many non biblical traditions—philosophical, cultural and religious—into their teachings and practices, spawning even more variations.
How can we account for the explosion of contradictory practices and conflicting factions in the world of Christianity? Is it possible to reconcile competing denominational groups with the standards and objectives Christ established for His Church? Can we know whether Christianity's bewildering variety of customs and teachings faithfully represents those of Jesus Christ? Remember, Jesus not only promised He would build His Church, but He assured His disciples that His Church would not perish. Is the divided Christianity we see around us that Church? Only the Holy Scriptures can provide a reliable answer to this question.
If Christ's promise that "the gates of Hades shall not prevail" against His Church should be considered a guarantee that those who believe on His name could never be misled or corrupted, then we would have every reason to accept the collective sum of the various divisions of Christianity as the Church Jesus built.
But He guaranteed no such thing. Instead, He warned His disciples that "false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Mark 13:22, emphasis added throughout).
Later the apostle Paul expressed his concern to Christians in his day that their minds could be "corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" by the preaching of "false apostles" (2 Corinthians 11:3 , 13).
Jesus spoke even more plainly, explaining that "narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:14-16).
In these pages we examine the fruits Jesus and His apostles said would identify His Church. We look at the contrasting fruits that identify those who are influenced by a different spirit and preach a different gospel. We will learn, not from human tradition or opinion but directly from God's Word, how we can distinguish "the church of the living God" (1 Timothy 3:15) from those who follow "false prophets" in sheep's clothing.
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For clarity throughout this booklet, the word Church (with a capital C ) refers to the faithful Church that Jesus Christ founded. The word church (with a small c ) refers to local groups of believers or other physical organizations. Since church is not capitalized in the Bible translations quoted, all scriptural quotations—whether referring to the Body of Christ or a local congregation—use church with a small c.
Thanks, GPH.
Here’s some verses and arguments against Calvinism:
http://heresies.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/calvinism.html
http://www.soulwinning.info/fd/calvinism/refuted.htm
http://people.cis.ksu.edu/~bbp9857/calvinism.html
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification_qa.html#scripture-I
I chose mostly non-Catholic sources on purpose, but I can’t vouch for them. :)
I doubt any will change your mind, maybe they’ll help you sharpen your sword anyway?
These arguments have gone on for a very long time; I doubt they will ever end. It’s a basic conundrum bordering on paradox. The opposing sides can lob verses at each other without end or resolution.
We must have some basis to even begin to judge this debate. For me it is God as He has let me know Him. I don’t see Him in the pure Calvinist theology.
Maybe it is different for you, I can’t say.
But I don’t want to fight about it. I probably should not have engaged you. I was trying to clarify the Catholic view that I thought was not clear - and here I am posting verse links .:)
I tend to jump in a defend the Church because the Church has been so good to me, I very likely would not be here without it.
So I apologize if I gave the impression I was hankering for a really good in depth argument or fight.
anyway... thanks very much and may God bless you and yours...
“Thanks, GPH.
Here’s some verses and arguments against Calvinism:”
Ha! I do not argue with websites, and I especially don’t waste my time reading a whole bunch of them. I’ve seen it all already. Argue with me directly, if you have the skill and knowledge to do so. You’re free to use and quote those websites to buttress your arguments, of course.
I’m not convinced that the Romans are able to make sustained arguments from the scripture on these matters.
“So I apologize if I gave the impression I was hankering for a really good in depth argument or fight.”
You never gave that impression. I was quite positive the whole time that I would only get surface level responses. I was, however, trying to goad you into an in depth argument.
Sorry, I can’t oblige. It’s no longer much sport for me. I regret a lot of it.
But take heart! You’re fairly new here. You could browse some old threads and revive one, or hang around a bit longer.
Anyway.. good luck to you!
“Anyway.. good luck to you!”
And good luck to you. I pray you examine these issues and convert, when once you discover that you cannot refute them from the scriptures with your own power, try as you might.
Been there, done that, grateful to God that He brought me home!
Bless you for your concern for me.
Sincerely..
There is a big difference between Sacred Tradition (Captital T) and tradition (Lower case).If you don't understand that there is little you will understand.
Second as for the quotes by the ECF's from the books later put into the Canon, so what. They also quoted from other sources. That does not mean that either they or those sources carried the same weight as the magesterium, nor does it mean that the "Bible" existed before the canon was ordered.
Now unless you're one of the crowd that believes that "The KJV was good enough for Paul so it is good enough for me" you need to rethink your ideas.
Most importantly Stop misquoting me.
Thanks smvoice. Great cite. Yours is becoming a larger voice of truth so you may have to alter that name...Grace to you.
I will not join the "fray" because the truth is not determined by bumper-sticker snippets of Scripture and quotes of scholars and Early Church Fathers. It is not us or cleverness and the gotcha "traps" laid or our skills in rhetoric and logic that converts hearts, it is only the Holy Spirit. All we can do is to continue to preach the truth. I have provided evidence, but I cannot make anyone understand or accept it. Some don't even recognize it as evidence....yet.
In parting, take care how you deal with the Catholic Church and all churches. As Gamaliel warned the Sanhedrin many false prophets and movements have arisen in history. Those that are false will fade away but those that are of God will endure. (Acts 5:34-42) If the Catholic Church is wrong it will not endure.
Peace be to you
“There is a big difference between Sacred Tradition (Captital T) and tradition (Lower case).If you don’t understand that there is little you will understand.”
There’s a big difference between generic, irrelevant responses like this and real factually based arguments. For example, if your own “Pope” doesn’t even share the same views of Papacy as you claim has existed for 2,000 years straight, but rather believes, with others at that time, that the Bishops of Rome, Antioch and Alexandria all possess the throne of Peter, why should I believe anything you say? If Ignatius, Polycarp and Clement not only do not mention the Papacy, do not exalt Peter, but actually emphasize the local Bishop and Christian communities, stating that the head of the Bishop is God, why should I believe you when you claim that the Pope and communion with him is real and important?
It doesn’t matter if you capitalize something or not. Your Romanist tradition of today simply did not exist 2,000 years ago, 1,900 years ago, 1,500 years ago. Heck, your tradition isn’t even the same from Vatican I to Vatican II. Once upon a time, the Papists would torture infidels until they repented, or burned people at the stake for printing a Bible. Now, they torture us with photo-ops next to Muslims and other assorted infidels, and bland theology that emphasizes what we do for Christ, instead of what Christ did for us. Your Pope Francis even lets Charismatics lay hands on him. Such a sad condition!
Now as to the scriptures, if the early church were quoting from them, they already existed. You didn’t invent the Bible. In fact, Jerome, Athanasius, Cyril of Jerusalem, “Pope” Gregory the first, all held to a different view of the canon than you do today.
I’m going to have to side with God on this one and believe He did, in fact, preserve the scriptures and insured their safe transmission, just as He did with the Old Testament since Moses.
“I have provided evidence,”
You’ve provided bumper-sticker snippets, avoided the issue of whether or not you burn fish guts to ward off evil spirits as in Tobit, amongst other challenges, and then responded by giving general guidelines about how you read scripture (without reading any scripture), and then, finally, asserted I don’t take Biblical verses literally, including ones that don’t even exist (John 5:57?), and then when I respond to it, you assert I’ve made bumper-sticker responses.
“As Gamaliel warned the Sanhedrin many false prophets and movements have arisen in history.”
Gamaliel is not a Christian. The Christian takes matters of truth very seriously, and is not agnostic about them, seeing what will come.
Who were you before you got zotted the last time?
First, let’s agree to not allow this discussion to devolve into any personal animus. While I enjoy discussing issues and ideas, I dislike friction and resentment.
That said, I am not going to participate in a game of gotcha or as I call it "Pin the tail on the Papist". I am not trying to correct or proselytize anyone. Nor am I trying to damage anyone's faith. I am only posting to ensure that the teachings of the Church are presented accurately. Sometimes that requires that I make observations about non-Catholic belief systems to form comparisons or contrasts and to those I welcome educated responses.
The sad thing for me is that you are making unsubstantiated charges in spite of me trying to answer you in significant depth. I apologize if I am not answering as you hoped. Let me ask you a few questions regarding the premises you are trying to construct your syllogism upon. Maybe they will help advance the discussion.
Can you tell me if the referenced misunderstood citation from Tobit (Chapt 8) must be or can only be interpreted in the literal and historical sense? Are you aware that the saving of the liver and heart had been done at the instructions of the Archangel Raphael (Tobit Chapt 6)? Or that the fish had been caught in the Tigris River, or that it was a demon possessed "very large fish” that had leaped out of the water and attempted to eat his foot not unlike demons Legion who entered the swine leaped into the Sea Galilee (Luke 8:26-39 )? Or if there was some spiritual symbolism behind a fish’s liver and heart placed on embers intended for incense? Or if incense is literally or symbolically effective in worship? Can you comment if the demon actually went to the upper regions of Egypt pursued by the Raphael?
I also find it distressing that you would assume, a priori, that I don’t read Scripture. I spend many hours each week reading Scripture and more hours ruminating about it. Too often I see from Protestants and other non-Catholics is an attempt to divide the Word. They seem to be of the impression that one must choose EITHER Sacred Scripture OR Sacred Tradition and insist that they are mutually exclusive. They further seem to insist that because Catholics embrace the Sacred Tradition we have abandoned and are ignorant of the Bible. I can assure you that simply not true. As for the nonexistent verse, I already responded that it was a typo (note the 5 and the 6 are next to each other on every QWERTY keyboard). It was ironic that you had a typo in your retort in which you got the verb tense of "broke" (brake) wrong and the "o" and the "a" are nowhere near each other.
Peace be with you
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