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To: patlin

“Grace is a gift we receive and each one must make the decision for themselves whether they will cherish it as to protect and guard it or to throw it in a closet or by the wayside where it collects the dust and grime of the world. (Jer 13:1-10)”


I wrote this just now for a Catholic, but it can be applied to this statement as well, that suggests that grace is insufficient to save a man:

“Catholics do not believe that salvation is by grace alone, and therefore argue that their salvation hinges on their obedience to Rome and their own good works. (They even believe that baptism confers “grace,” giving them the ability to believe, which is an act of man and not of God alone.) This is, in other words, a choice they are making, on whether or not they wish to be justified by God, albeit, they claim they do so in cooperation with God. But if it is not all of grace, then it must be all of man. There is no middle-ground where the grace of God is insufficient to save a man.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Whenever God intends to give His grace to a man, it is described as a complete work.

Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order of the words. Those whom He predestinates, are to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is not, those who, working with God, and are baptized, conform themselves to His Son and are then predestinated. It is the exact opposite.

Then he says, those whom God predestinates, He calls, and those He calls He justifies, and those He justifies He glorifies. No where is anyone receiving a call, and then answering it of his own free-will, and then being predestinated as a result.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Again, they believed because they were ordained. They did not get “ordained” because they believed.

There is also no failure here in God’s determination to have His elect.

Those whom God draws, come to Jesus without fail:

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No one can take them out of His hand:

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Not even in the heights of delusion by false-Christs working with devils, they cannot be lost.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If it were possible means that it is not possible, though if salvation hinged on the man, it is always possible.

It is impossible, however, for someone to come to Christ or remain in Him who has not been drawn by the Father.

Joh 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They do not believe because they are not His sheep. It is not, they do not believe, and therefore God shall not let them become His sheep.

It happens again here, in response to the Jews murmering in disbelief of Christ’s sayings.

Joh 6:42-44 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He repeats the fact that they do not believe BECAUSE they were not drawn by the Father:

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, THEREFORE said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Salvation, then, is the complete work of God, who has mercy on whom He will have mercy, so that it is not him that runneth, or him that willeth, but on God who shows mercy.

Rom 9:14-25 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

All the Roman notions of grace and salvation, therefore, have no basis in the scripture.”

Salvation is either all of God, or it is not.

There is indeed a difference between a Living Faith and a dead one, as the living faith is that faith which is made perfect by obedience. It is, like in the quote from Romans, something we as necessity of being God’s elect follow as a direct movement of God, but it (works) neither saves us nor helps our cause.

For why would Cornelius and his family be baptized with the Holy Spirit, prior to any Christian works?

Also, Christ fulfills the law, and though the moral law is is true and serves to show that we are all under sin, there is no reason to bear the “yoke” of Jewish custom as if it could add one whit to our salvation.

Gal 5:1-7 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (7) Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?


7 posted on 03/28/2013 10:13:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I understand the Catholic concept of works salvation as they wrote nothing new but simply reworked through their false doctrine the works salvation of the circumcision party of Acts 15:1 who repeatedly appears throughout the New testament to thwart the efforts of the apostles in leading the children of God into right “relationship”. I find it odd that you quote from Eph 2 but then do not make the connection to James 2 as grace is through faith, then one must understand from God's point of view what faith is.

Faith is the fruit that His grace produces and that fruit is sprouted from His “seed” that is implanted in our hearts, the “seed” that is called the “Word of God” according to Luke 8:11.

Yeshua said that none can come to Him unless they have been called by the Father. This is the calling and receiving of the word of God's grace. “Many are called, few will enter”, why? Because many refuse to answer the true call of the Father as Yeshua answered the call of the Father, to humbly submit oneself to the will of the Father.

Dt 8:2 And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.

Mt 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.’ “

Lk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD OF GOD.’ “

Paul tells us that those of the faith are of Abraham's seed, and not as seeds of many but as one “seed” and that “seed” is Messiah. Paul was alluding to the words of Yeshua when He spoke these words,

Mt 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Lk 3:8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Jn 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Gen 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Abraham had the gospel preached to him, Abraham knew Messiah personally.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand

Ps 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”

Gen 14:18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

You may be interested in reading the book “Who ate lunch with Abraham” as it would seem you have missed a critical prophetic message from God the Father concerning just who has been speaking, appearing and acting on His behalf since the beginning, since the 1st day of creation. Does the legal term “power of attorney” come to mind? It should.

1Cor 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

When one understands the “tabernacle” of God to be Messiah and that the earthly temple was merely a shadow of the heavenly that we are a part of, then one is able to come into right relationship with God through Yeshua Messiah as that was the purpose of the earthly temple, to bring us into right relationship with the Father as Yeshua is in right relationship with the Father. You say there is nothing to be done, but Paul begs to differ with you.

2Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So yes it is, come as you are, but then humble we are to humble ourselves to become that which He originally created man to be, of incorruptible flesh. When we receive the spirit helper from the Father, the same spirit that was in Yeshua’s flesh, we now have the ability to be transformed and in that transformation, we are His light to the world just as Yeshua is His light to the world.

Without His light there is darkness, just as we see all around us today due to the cheapening of His grace which is the most precious and priceless gift one could ever receive.

Relationship denotes action on the part of both parties in the relationship. On God's part, He gives us grace, on our part, we become His humble servants doing the will of the Father as Yeshua did the will of the Father, as Abraham did the will of the Father. Why else would Yeshua say in Mt 5:48 to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect if he did not expect his disciples and followers to do as he did, walk in obesiance to the Father?

Does one who truly loves get engaged and then continue to walk and act like they are single? Does one who truly loves say “I do” in their marriage vows then still walk and act as they are single? So if we are betrothed to Yeshua Messiah, the Word of God, then what does it say of our love of the Father and the Son if we choose to walk a path in opposition to that which the Father through Yeshua calls us to walk?

Religion makes its own rules, “relationship” submits to the rules already in place by the head of the household and for those in Messiah, that household is the household of God the Father. Eph 2:19-22

8 posted on 03/28/2013 11:35:13 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
As an additional note to the previous reply, what Paul was alluding to on Rm 9 is that because of God's grace that has been since He sent Adam and Eve packing from the garden, no man can claim that God is obligated to receive them into His eternal kingdom because of their works, this way no man can boast. But this grace does in no way exempt us from serving God as God wants to be served which Yeshua exemplified for us so beautifully.

There is only one truth and one true way in this world and that is God's truth and His way. Everything else is of man and man's carnal nature that we were born into due to the first act of disobedience towards God.

Rm 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jn 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

The Spirit of Truth who hears and speaks the words of the Father just as it was for the Yeshua in the flesh as exampled in his 40 days of testing which was prophesied to happen for all born in the flesh in Dt 8:2-3.

In Eze 20, God prophesies of the time of Yeshua’s return when the rebels will be purged from amongst the flock. In Eze 36 He speaks of how the remaining will be cleansed from all their unrighteousness. But, in Rev 19:7-8 the bride is the one who has already prepared herself prior to Yeshua’s return (Mt 25) and because of her preparation, she is given the gift of the fine wedding linen of righteousness. It does not say that Yeshua was their preparation, it says she prepared herself and as earthly wedding prep has taught us, every bride has an attendant and for we the bride of Messiah, that attendant is the Father's Spirit of Truth, the same truth that was and is in Yeshua. The truth that has been from everlasting and will remain everlasting as God and the Son are outside of time as to them there is only one time frame and that is the time frame of God the Father who is infinite and outside the comprehension of man's feeble and corrupt minds. No dispensations, no earth ages just one cycle of time that repeats over and over again until the day He comes to rid us of man's dispensations and ages of time to reimplement His “ONE” and eternal kingdom as it was meant to be in the beginning.

We can humbly submit now, or we can wait and do it the hard way as they did in the wilderness, that is if we survive because the only ones gathered at His return are the ones who have already proven themselves worthy to be a priest of God by obeying God and teaching others to do as Yeshua did.

1Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

If it is the Father who calls us out to come to His son,then it is the Father to whom we owe obesiance, just as the Son.

Mt 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The scribes and pharisees were at least following the commands, albeit they were doing it with their oral law added to it, but never did they set aside the commands as Christian doctrine of cheap grace teaches. Really, just how important are the food laws? Peter speaks of them in the 1st chapter of his 1st epistle which ends by telling us to cleanse ourselves, but more importantly, God speaks of them through His prophet Isaiah,

Is 65:2 "I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts; ... 4 who sit among the graves, And spend the night in the tombs; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;"

Is 66:16 "For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens after an idol in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together," says the LORD.

If our desire is to be part of the bride as the Father desires and has called us to be, then we must also desire to be His priests as that is what the bride is, His priests of the order of Malki'Tzedek under the order and direction of Yeshua the High Priest of the order of Malki'Tzedek. No priest enters the tablernalcle without first being cleansed and that is what Torah does, it instructs us how to cleanse ourselves for service in His holy tabernacle.

The true Gospel message:

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." 7 So Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before them all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." So Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. 9 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever." So Moses told the words of the people to the LORD. 10 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes. 11 And let them be ready for the third day. For on the third day the LORD will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.

We are nearing that third day, should we not be preparing and cleansing ourselves for His service He has called us to?

10 posted on 03/29/2013 12:34:53 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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