Posted on 03/18/2013 12:23:39 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
Romans 9:15-24
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
That would be salvation by election and off the mark of salvation by grace through faith.
>>” and no one can wrest you out.”
No one can but you choose to leave.
The scripture cannot be broken. When Paul says that no man can call Jesus the Christ, save by the Holy Ghost, we can believe it. Therefore, your 500 verses must make room for the ones you find inconvenient.
No one is saved by election. Election is simply God’s plan. Men are saved by the grace of God, who, through His own free willl, chose to snatch you, a sinner, from the fires that are to come. The scripture does not say that a person that is God’s can leave Him.
No election, no grace, no faith, no salvation - ergo salvation by election.
This would make Jesus ministry moot and the Gospel nonsensical.
I’m not a Calvinist. I’m respectful to Calvinist brethren. I hope you’re kidding.
We have grace, election, faith and salvation - thus the Gospel is not moot. You simply misunderstand the word election. It is the act which follows from the motivation, which is God’s mercy. That is the true Gospel message. It is not about what we do for Christ, or about our own works or willpower, but rather it is about what Christ has done for us, who saved us while we were yet sinners. You can dislike the concept, but it does not revoke what the scripture clearly says.
I believe the doctrine is that no election, no... the rest.
So everything is conditional upon election. This is salvation by election. Quite different from the teaching of other Christian doctrine.
Nay, it is salvation by the grace of God. As Paul said, it is not by him who runs, or him who wills, but of God who shows mercy. Paul himself is the poster child of it, who was saved mightily by the direct appearance of Christ. Your philosophical problems and misuse of the word aside, it matters nothing if you don’t reconcile the scriptures. This IS the Gospels, and runs up and down the entire New Testament.
For some reason despair.com is coming up asking for a user name and password. :-(.
Funny--I didn't think God-breathed Scripture had a presupposition. I just quoted the chapters and verses. Seems pretty plain and obvious to me.
Sorry if you can't see it.
Hoss
The Holy Spirit undoubtedly does reveal God to man, but not irresistibly:
“And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.”
The call to repent is an honest call. God does not lie. He doesn’t command anyone to repent without allowing them to do so. If they refuse, so be it.
“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
This material comes from Zondervan’s NIV Life in the Spirit Study Bible. The description of the doctrines of election and predestination is followed by some comments quoted from the study Bible’s notes on 1 Peter 1:2 and Romans 8:29 to show how the corporate election perspective might view the place of foreknowledge in election, also quite different from the traditional Arminian view, though completely consonant with Arminian theology, figured as it is within a conditional view of election and predestination.
Election. God’s choice of those who believe in Christ is an important teaching of the apostle Paul (see Ro 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; Col 3:12; 1 Th 1:4; 2 Th 2:13; Tit 1:1). Election (Gk eklego) refers to God choosing in Christ a people whom he destines to be holy and blameless in his sight (cf. 2 Th 2:13). Paul sees this election as expressing God’s initiative as the God of infinite love in giving us as finite creation every spiritual blessing through the redemptive work of his Son (1:3-5). Paul’s teaching about election involves the following truths:
(1) Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note). Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, “Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4). Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect (Eph 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
(2) Election is “in him…through his blood” (Eph 1:7). God purposed before creation (Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded on Christ’s sacrificial death to save us from our sins (Ac 20:28; Ro 3:24-26).
(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).
(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).
(5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).
Predestination. Predestination (Gk prooizo) means “to decide beforehand” and applies to God’s purposes comprehended in election. Election is God’s choice “in Christ” of a people (the true church) for himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine believers in Christ).
(1) God predestines his elect to be: (a) called (Rom. 8:30); (b) justified (Ro 3:24, 8:30); (c) glorified (Ro 8:30); (d) conformed to the likeness of his Son (Ro 8:29); (e) holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); (f) adopted as God’s children (1:5); (g) redeemed (1:7); (h) recipients of an inheritance (1:14); (i) for the praise of his glory (Eph 1:2; 1 Pe 2:9); (j) recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14); and (k) created to do good works (Eph 2:10).
(2) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ (i.e., the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:5, 7, 13; cf. Ac 2:38-41; 16:31).
Summary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]
Life in the Spirit Study Bible note on 1 Peter 1:2 –
the foreknowledge of God We are “chosen” to be God’s people according to his foreknowledge, i.e., according to God’s own comprehensive knowledge of his plan of redemption in Christ for the church, even before creation and human history began (see Rom. 8:29 note). Foreknowledge is virtually a synonym of God’s sovereign and far-seeing purpose to redeem according to his eternal love. The “chosen” are the company of true believers, chosen in harmony with God’s determined plan to redeem the church by the blood of Jesus Christ through the Spirit’s sanctifying work (see article on Election and Predestination, p. 1845). All believers must participate in their election by their response of faith and by being eager to make their calling and election sure (see 2 Pe 1:5, 10, notes).
Life in the Spirit Study Bible note on Romans 8:29 –
those God foreknew “Foreknew” in this verse is equivalent to “foreloved” and is used in the sense of “to set loving regard on,” “to choose to bestow love on from eternity” (cf. Ex 2:25; Ps 1:6 Hos 13:5; Mt 7:23; 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9; 1 Jn 3:1).
(1) Foreknowledge means that God purposed from eternity to love and redeem the human race through Christ (5:8; Jn 3:16). The recipient of God’s foreknowledge or forelove is stated in plural and refers to the church. That is, God’s forelove is primarily for the corporate body of Christ (Eph 1:4; 2:4; 1 Jn 4:19) and includes individuals only as they identify themselves with this corporate body through abiding faith in and union with Christ (Jn 15:1-6; see article on Election and Predestination, p. 1854)
(2) The corporate body of Christ will attain to glorification (v. 30). Individual believers will fall short of glorification if they separate themselves from that foreloved body and fail to maintain their faith in Christ (vv. 12-14, 17; Col 1:21-23).
I like these:
John 12:32 -- "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (Jesus was lifted up (crucified) and draws all men. Most choose not to come.)
John 5:40 -- "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (They choose not to come.)
1 Timothy 2:3,4 -- "For this is good an acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (God wants all men be saved, but most choose not to.)
Acts 7:51 -- "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your Fathers did, so do ye." (Most resist, choosing not to come to the savior.)
I’ve known a few calvinists. I’ve liked all of them. I dont have any patience for calvinism though.
well said! another analogy I use is someone who constantly mocks and ridicules a neighbor and acts as if he doesn’t even exist. Then his house catches fire and he believes he is entitled to come and live inside in his neighbor’s house. Not a perfect analogy but you get the idea.
These people don’t believe in heaven but think everyone is entitled to go there if it does exists. Man-centered thinking by someone who really hasn’t given the matter much thought.
The call goes out to everyone (free offer of the Gospel).
God's people respond. Those who do not are left to perish in their sins but nonetheless culpable as per Luke 12:47: "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."
Election isn't to give fear to God's people but rather comfort. Nonetheless, the doctrine is justly terrifying to those who hear and harden themselves. Take comfort, therefore, if you are shaken by the awesome majesty of our King's sovereignty in election that you, too, are numbered among His elect if you are in Christ Jesus.
God as described in Scripture is awesome and terrible, not someone we should desire to experience naked in our own sin because alas, we would be consumed. Only the white garment of Christ's righteousness can and the cleansing of the Holy Ghost can prepare us to meet God.
A prominent theologian once made the salient point that we cannot find God for the same reason a robber cannot find a policeman.
(They choose not to come)
(...most choose not to.)
(Most resist....)
How can a corpse choose to do anything? Until we are regenerated, we can do NOTHING on our own. From esvbible.org:
" And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV)"
"... you were dead in trespasses and sins...."
"But God...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...."
Before we are made regenerate, we can ONLY "choose" death; it's not until God makes us alive in Christ -- by HIS grace and power, not by anything in or of us, otherwise we would be able to boast--that we are saved.
I like this one:
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:28-30 ESV)"
Hoss
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