Replies

Bottom-line: As GF makes the case for, when Biblically provoked, respond! When responding, don't go to the extremes of homosexual activists who attempt to pre-empt public discussion. (And by saying this latter part, I'm not saying, GF that you are doing that

I'm not going to allow anyone to pre-empt my moral right to continue to state my response.

This PC moral cancer of "oh, don't take offense at offensive messages" must, IMO be defeated and I will continue to fight against it.

Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity

	Mormonism	Christianity
What is the Church?	The LDS Church is the only true church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 1:30); all other churches (Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists are specifically mentioned in Joseph Smith, History 1:9, Pearl of Great Price) are "wrong," "all their creeds were an abomination," and "those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith, History 1:19). Those of creedal or traditional Christianity have adopted "pagan beliefs" and are part of "false Christianity" (Gospel Principles, 100 [1979 edition]). One either belongs to "the church of the Lamb of God" or to "the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith taught that everybody but faithful Mormons will be damned (History of the Church 3:28). "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely indispensable to our salvation. No supposed personal relationship with Jesus, no commitment to the gospel, no high level of Christian conduct in society can compensate for what is to be found in the Church" (Robert Millet, Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth [Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1997], 140).	The Church is a body of various believers and groups of believers. The one true Church is the invisible, spiritual, and universal Body of Christ in heaven and on earth made up of all those true believers from various local denominations or visible churches. The body is an organism, not an external organization. Unity in this body does not demand complete uniformity in its various manifestations. God loves diversity. Yet the Church's unity is in Christ, who is the vine. People in various denominations who are committed to the Vine are the branches; no one particular manifestation of the Church is the vine (Matthew 16:18; 15:5; Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:1-13).
What happens after death?	Individuals go to more places than either with Christ or with the devil and his angels. Depending on how good non-LDS members are in this life and the next determines their place in one of two lower heavenly kingdoms or "degrees of glory"--the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms--both of which are still outside the presence of God in His celestial kingdom (D&C 76). Both of these lower kingdoms are an eternal damnation of sorts, since there is no progression among all the kingdoms throughout eternity (Apostle Bruce McConkie, The Seven Deadly Heresies, Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50, and Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31). The worst eternal damnation is a separate place called "outer darkness" where only apostates reside with the Devil and his angels. The Book of Mormon teaches that if an individual doesn't repent in "this life," then one is sealed to the devil and "this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32-5). For LDS, this passage typically means that individuals who willfully deny Christ and His Church after given an opportunity to be a part of it end up forever excluded from the presence of God in His kingdom. McConkie said that only those who never had the opportunity in this life to be part of God's celestial kingdom, and who would have received it, are the ones who will have that opportunity in the next life (The Seven Deadly Heresies, cf. D&C 137:7-8). Nonetheless, all children who die before the age of accountability go to the celestial kingdom (D&C 137:10). Prior to the final judgment, all individuals go to one of two places: paradise or spirit prison. LDS go to the former and non-LDS go to the latter. LDS will go and preach to those in spirit prison (Alma 40:12-4 and D&C 138:30). Within the celestial kingdom, there are also three degrees of glory. The highest is reserved for those who are sealed in marriage for time and all eternity (D&C 131:1-4). McConkie was also clear that simply having this celestial marriage is no guarantee of exaltation (The Seven Deadly Heresies). Finally, there are angels who worship before the throne of God, who never received a celestial marriage and are thus single (D&C 76:21 and 132:15-17).	Individuals go to be either with Christ or with the devil and his angels. Those who are part of the body of Christ should know they have eternal life (1 John 5:10-13). They are in Christ's and the Father's hand, and no one can pluck them out of it (Jn. 10:27-30). Christ went to prepare a place for them in His Father's house, but until then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit take up residency in their lives (Jn. 14:1-3, 23-6). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6; and Philippians 1:21-5). The Bible is clear that paradise is the third heaven--the dwelling of God (2 Cor. 12:1-4). The first heaven is the earthly atmosphere (Acts 14:17) and the second heaven is outer space (Jeremiah 8:2). At the judgment, there are those who go with the devil and his angels, and there are those who go to life eternal (Mat. 25:31-46).
What is divine salvation?	Divine salvation is unconditional for resurrection and conditional for eternal life. In one sense, salvation is universal immortality and resurrection by grace alone, and is given to everyone except apostates. In another sense, salvation is eternal life or exaltation into the highest kingdom. The latter is dependent on grace through faith and one's works (2 Ne. 25:23; D&C 76:40-4; and Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 669-71, and 746).	Divine salvation is always conditional. Divine salvation is always from sin and its consequence of separation from God. This salvation is always conditioned upon faith. Until this occurs, God considers the individual dead. When this salvation occurs, one has eternal life (Jn. 5:24; Romans 5; Eph. 2:1-10; and 1 Jn. 5:10-3).
Where is the cross?	The symbol of the cross is absent. Since the Savior lives, LDS focus on his life rather than his death. Though He suffered for our sins on the cross, the greater pain was in the Garden of Gethsemane where the atonement was initiated. The emblem of the cross is not to be revered, and its display is "very strange" (Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Symbol of Our Faith," Ensign, Apr 2005, 2-6; McConkie, "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane," Ensign [May 1985], 9; Mormon Doctrine, 172 and 555; The Promised Messiah, 337 and 552; The Mortal Messiah, 127-128; Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:15-8; "Cross" and "Atonement of Christ," LDS.org).	The symbol of the cross is central. Simply because Jesus lives forever more is no reason to minimize the means by which He paid for our sins. The Bible never teaches that the atonement began in the garden. Rather, it teaches that the atonement happened on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). The cross is foolishness to the perishing, but the power of God to them being saved (1 Cor. 1:18). There is nothing else that deserves boasting except the cross of Christ (Galatians 6:14). The cross symbolizes a way His followers are to live (Luke 9:23). Even the first century Christians used the symbol of the cross as archeology has revealed.
Did Christ die for all sins?	Christ did not die for all sins. Christ did not atone for the murderer, since there is no forgiveness for him "in this world, nor in the world to come." Christ also did not pay for more than a one-time offense of adultery, since such violators cannot be forgiven either (D&C 42:18 and 25-9). Actually, according to one apostle, Christ atoned simply for Adam's sin, and left "us responsible only for our own sins." This apostle goes on to quote the 2nd Article of Faith that claims "men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Le Grand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [1976], 98). Other LDS prophets have taught that there are certain "sins" that one may commit that are beyond the atonement of the Son of God, and one's own blood must be shed in such cases (Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses 3:247; 4:53-4; 4:219-220; and Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:133-6).	Christ did die for all sins. Christ atoned for all sins (Adam's as well as everyone else's). The Lord Jesus took the punishment of everyone on the cross. The debt we could never pay has been completely paid by the Lamb of God, and to those who receive this gift, they are declared "justified" or "not guilty." This is the good news (the gospel) for everyone, including the adulterer and the murderer (2 Samuel 12:13; Isaiah 53:3-12; Mt. 18:21-2; Rom. 3:24; 4:5; 5:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:14-21; 1 Pt. 2:24; and 1

Mormonism

Christianity

What is the Church?

The LDS Church is the only true church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 1:30); all other churches (Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists are specifically mentioned in Joseph Smith, History 1:9, Pearl of Great Price) are "wrong," "all their creeds were an abomination," and "those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith, History 1:19). Those of creedal or traditional Christianity have adopted "pagan beliefs" and are part of "false Christianity" (Gospel Principles, 100 [1979 edition]). One either belongs to "the church of the Lamb of God" or to "the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith taught that everybody but faithful Mormons will be damned (History of the Church 3:28). "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely indispensable to our salvation. No supposed personal relationship with Jesus, no commitment to the gospel, no high level of Christian conduct in society can compensate for what is to be found in the Church" (Robert Millet, Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth [Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1997], 140).

The Church is a body of various believers and groups of believers.

The one true Church is the invisible, spiritual, and universal Body of Christ in heaven and on earth made up of all those true believers from various local denominations or visible churches. The body is an organism, not an external organization. Unity in this body does not demand complete uniformity in its various manifestations. God loves diversity. Yet the Church's unity is in Christ, who is the vine. People in various denominations who are committed to the Vine are the branches; no one particular manifestation of the Church is the vine (Matthew 16:18; 15:5; Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:1-13).

What happens after death?

Individuals go to more places than either with Christ or with the devil and his angels.

Depending on how good non-LDS members are in this life and the next determines their place in one of two lower heavenly kingdoms or "degrees of glory"--the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms--both of which are still outside the presence of God in His celestial kingdom (D&C 76). Both of these lower kingdoms are an eternal damnation of sorts, since there is no progression among all the kingdoms throughout eternity (Apostle Bruce McConkie, The Seven Deadly Heresies, Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50, and Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31). The worst eternal damnation is a separate place called "outer darkness" where only apostates reside with the Devil and his angels. The Book of Mormon teaches that if an individual doesn't repent in "this life," then one is sealed to the devil and "this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32-5). For LDS, this passage typically means that individuals who willfully deny Christ and His Church after given an opportunity to be a part of it end up forever excluded from the presence of God in His kingdom. McConkie said that only those who never had the opportunity in this life to be part of God's celestial kingdom, and who would have received it, are the ones who will have that opportunity in the next life (The Seven Deadly Heresies, cf. D&C 137:7-8). Nonetheless, all children who die before the age of accountability go to the celestial kingdom (D&C 137:10). Prior to the final judgment, all individuals go to one of two places: paradise or spirit prison. LDS go to the former and non-LDS go to the latter. LDS will go and preach to those in spirit prison (Alma 40:12-4 and D&C 138:30). Within the celestial kingdom, there are also three degrees of glory. The highest is reserved for those who are sealed in marriage for time and all eternity (D&C 131:1-4). McConkie was also clear that simply having this celestial marriage is no guarantee of exaltation (The Seven Deadly Heresies). Finally, there are angels who worship before the throne of God, who never received a celestial marriage and are thus single (D&C 76:21 and 132:15-17).

Individuals go to be either with Christ or with the devil and his angels.

Those who are part of the body of Christ should know they have eternal life (1 John 5:10-13). They are in Christ's and the Father's hand, and no one can pluck them out of it (Jn. 10:27-30). Christ went to prepare a place for them in His Father's house, but until then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit take up residency in their lives (Jn. 14:1-3, 23-6). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6; and Philippians 1:21-5). The Bible is clear that paradise is the third heaven--the dwelling of God (2 Cor. 12:1-4). The first heaven is the earthly atmosphere (Acts 14:17) and the second heaven is outer space (Jeremiah 8:2). At the judgment, there are those who go with the devil and his angels, and there are those who go to life eternal (Mat. 25:31-46).

What is divine salvation?

Divine salvation is unconditional for resurrection and conditional for eternal life.

In one sense, salvation is universal immortality and resurrection by grace alone, and is given to everyone except apostates. In another sense, salvation is eternal life or exaltation into the highest kingdom. The latter is dependent on grace through faith and one's works (2 Ne. 25:23; D&C 76:40-4; and Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 669-71, and 746).

Divine salvation is always conditional.

Divine salvation is always from sin and its consequence of separation from God. This salvation is always conditioned upon faith. Until this occurs, God considers the individual dead. When this salvation occurs, one has eternal life (Jn. 5:24; Romans 5; Eph. 2:1-10; and 1 Jn. 5:10-3).

Where is the cross?

The symbol of the cross is absent.

Since the Savior lives, LDS focus on his life rather than his death. Though He suffered for our sins on the cross, the greater pain was in the Garden of Gethsemane where the atonement was initiated. The emblem of the cross is not to be revered, and its display is "very strange" (Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Symbol of Our Faith," Ensign, Apr 2005, 2-6; McConkie, "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane," Ensign [May 1985], 9; Mormon Doctrine, 172 and 555; The Promised Messiah, 337 and 552; The Mortal Messiah, 127-128; Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:15-8; "Cross" and "Atonement of Christ," LDS.org).

The symbol of the cross is central.

Simply because Jesus lives forever more is no reason to minimize the means by which He paid for our sins. The Bible never teaches that the atonement began in the garden. Rather, it teaches that the atonement happened on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). The cross is foolishness to the perishing, but the power of God to them being saved (1 Cor. 1:18). There is nothing else that deserves boasting except the cross of Christ (Galatians 6:14). The cross symbolizes a way His followers are to live (Luke 9:23). Even the first century Christians used the symbol of the cross as archeology has revealed.

Did Christ die for all sins?

Christ did not die for all sins.

Christ did not atone for the murderer, since there is no forgiveness for him "in this world, nor in the world to come." Christ also did not pay for more than a one-time offense of adultery, since such violators cannot be forgiven either (D&C 42:18 and 25-9). Actually, according to one apostle, Christ atoned simply for Adam's sin, and left "us responsible only for our own sins." This apostle goes on to quote the 2nd Article of Faith that claims "men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Le Grand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [1976], 98). Other LDS prophets have taught that there are certain "sins" that one may commit that are beyond the atonement of the Son of God, and one's own blood must be shed in such cases (Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses 3:247; 4:53-4; 4:219-220; and Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:133-6).

Christ did die for all sins.

Christ atoned for all sins (Adam's as well as everyone else's). The Lord Jesus took the punishment of everyone on the cross. The debt we could never pay has been completely paid by the Lamb of God, and to those who receive this gift, they are declared "justified" or "not guilty." This is the good news (the gospel) for everyone, including the adulterer and the murderer (2 Samuel 12:13; Isaiah 53:3-12; Mt. 18:21-2; Rom. 3:24; 4:5; 5:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:14-21; 1 Pt. 2:24; and 1

I'm not going to allow anyone to pre-empt my moral right to continue to state my response. This PC moral cancer of "oh, don't take offense at offensive messages" must, IMO be defeated and I will continue to fight against it.

(Heartily agree!)

This PC moral cancer of "oh, don't take offense at offensive messages" must, IMO be defeated and I will continue to fight against it.

Where would you, a supposed Christian; ever get an idea like that?

Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23

1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!