[Colofornian]

Well, I've read your exchanges, GF & Sherm.

I have to say I actually agree with BOTH of you...and when I say that, I'm referencing in particular GF's comment (#30) and Sherm's comment in #51: I believe that American Christians who believe their own religion to be true do not have a moral right to be offended by people of other religions who believe the same about their own faiths and express that belief politely. [Sherman Logan]

...Here's GF's comments in post #30:

Sherman states: I've had many conversations with Mormon missionaries and they have always been polite to a fault. Nana states I dont like being attacked verbally by Mormons at my own door because I am a Christian...Perhaps it doesn't occur to some that the very fact that the message mormon missionaries bring to the doors of Christians is an attack on their faith. Their message is that the mormon church is "the only true church on the face of the earth" and "the only way to salvation is through taking part in arcane rituals in mormon temples." You ask, "Do you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is thereby attacking you verbally?"...."disagree" is a false description of the mormon message...that message is a frontal attack on the belief of a Christian, comparable with someone knocking on your door and saying, "Sherman, your child is the ugliest thing I have ever seen." That has been the message sent out by the mormon church to the world for 180 years.

So...allow me first to reinforce what GF is saying with a parallel consideration.

I don't particularly like a number of facets about the Westboro picketer folks...yet some people forget what provoked them into their initial protests.

The "father" of the clan had been at that time actually quite "progressive" -- filing legal briefs (if I recall correctly) in opposing discrimination vs. blacks. What he didn't like was the open public (often anonymous) homosexual acts taking place in a nearby park that his kids walked to & fro in front of...with the kids sometimes being exposed to these vile acts.

The family began picketing these acts at the park to bring attention to it so that the locals would enforce already existent laws. Some of the homosexuals "fought back" by becoming hostile in their confrontations with the picketers. Thus, it became the the "let's keep-sex-out-of-the-bedroom-in-yo-face homosexual park perverts" vs. "the-eventual-let's-keep-placard-condemnations-in-yo-face Westboroites."

Hardly anybody likes what this picketing family has become. Yet, the initial spark of what provoked them was provocative enough for them to publicly respond.

Do we have a Biblical right to be provoked by some public things? (Ya better believe it!) On what basis do I make that claim? (On the basis of St. Peter's description of Lot, who lived near Sodom & Gomorrah):

2 Peter: 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

I know there are many Americans -- oft' "moral libertarians" - who somehow think, "you don't like abortion? Don't have one." "You don't like homosexuality, be heterosexual then." ("Otherwise, shut up"). But they forget that rampant immorality doesn't respect any bounds!!!

We see lifestyles that are indeed provocative to us! That ranges from the porn industry today going back to Sodomites who wanted to rape three visiting angels...indeed, the Sodomitic cultural impact was so negative it horribly impacted Lot's two daughters, who couldn't even find worthy husbands in that culture.

Now I don't think that we can come along and lecture people that you can't be offended by the homosexual culture and sub-cultures; or that we can't be offended by Muslim "you're-an-infidel" & Mormon "you're-an-apostate" messaging.

Yet I do agree with Sherm that one cultural trend in our midst is that EVERYBODY is trying to keep their given pet conviction or lifestyle free from critique...which is what has led the homosexual activist movement to clamp down on free speech during corporate diversity training sessions ...and has even led to interpretations that somebody promoting Chick-Fil-A is offending their personal (lesbian) lifestyle -- and must be punished in the workplace for doing so!

So, I think it's "OK" to be provoked by lawless deeds we see & hear...AND when we are trashed by Mormon missionaries who often use the phrase "universal apostasy" -- thereby accusing us, our spiritual forefathers, and even the Christian forefathers of this country of being apostates!! We Christians need to start recognizing an accusation when it's proffered up!

And yet, we can't do what the homosexual activists do -- who wind up attempting to censor any and all who publicly disagree with that lifestyle and the band-wagon of things it pulls around in our society.

Bottom-line: As GF makes the case for, when Biblically provoked, respond! When responding, don't go to the extremes of homosexual activists who attempt to pre-empt public discussion. (And by saying this latter part, I'm not saying, GF that you are doing that; I'm simply agreeing with one principle uttered by S.L.)

[greyfoxx39]

Bottom-line: As GF makes the case for, when Biblically provoked, respond! When responding, don't go to the extremes of homosexual activists who attempt to pre-empt public discussion. (And by saying this latter part, I'm not saying, GF that you are doing that

I'm not going to allow anyone to pre-empt my moral right to continue to state my response.

This PC moral cancer of "oh, don't take offense at offensive messages" must, IMO be defeated and I will continue to fight against it.

Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity

	Mormonism	Christianity
What is the Church?	The LDS Church is the only true church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 1:30); all other churches (Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists are specifically mentioned in Joseph Smith, History 1:9, Pearl of Great Price) are "wrong," "all their creeds were an abomination," and "those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith, History 1:19). Those of creedal or traditional Christianity have adopted "pagan beliefs" and are part of "false Christianity" (Gospel Principles, 100 [1979 edition]). One either belongs to "the church of the Lamb of God" or to "the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith taught that everybody but faithful Mormons will be damned (History of the Church 3:28). "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely indispensable to our salvation. No supposed personal relationship with Jesus, no commitment to the gospel, no high level of Christian conduct in society can compensate for what is to be found in the Church" (Robert Millet, Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth [Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1997], 140).	The Church is a body of various believers and groups of believers. The one true Church is the invisible, spiritual, and universal Body of Christ in heaven and on earth made up of all those true believers from various local denominations or visible churches. The body is an organism, not an external organization. Unity in this body does not demand complete uniformity in its various manifestations. God loves diversity. Yet the Church's unity is in Christ, who is the vine. People in various denominations who are committed to the Vine are the branches; no one particular manifestation of the Church is the vine (Matthew 16:18; 15:5; Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:1-13).
What happens after death?	Individuals go to more places than either with Christ or with the devil and his angels. Depending on how good non-LDS members are in this life and the next determines their place in one of two lower heavenly kingdoms or "degrees of glory"--the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms--both of which are still outside the presence of God in His celestial kingdom (D&C 76). Both of these lower kingdoms are an eternal damnation of sorts, since there is no progression among all the kingdoms throughout eternity (Apostle Bruce McConkie, The Seven Deadly Heresies, Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50, and Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31). The worst eternal damnation is a separate place called "outer darkness" where only apostates reside with the Devil and his angels. The Book of Mormon teaches that if an individual doesn't repent in "this life," then one is sealed to the devil and "this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32-5). For LDS, this passage typically means that individuals who willfully deny Christ and His Church after given an opportunity to be a part of it end up forever excluded from the presence of God in His kingdom. McConkie said that only those who never had the opportunity in this life to be part of God's celestial kingdom, and who would have received it, are the ones who will have that opportunity in the next life (The Seven Deadly Heresies, cf. D&C 137:7-8). Nonetheless, all children who die before the age of accountability go to the celestial kingdom (D&C 137:10). Prior to the final judgment, all individuals go to one of two places: paradise or spirit prison. LDS go to the former and non-LDS go to the latter. LDS will go and preach to those in spirit prison (Alma 40:12-4 and D&C 138:30). Within the celestial kingdom, there are also three degrees of glory. The highest is reserved for those who are sealed in marriage for time and all eternity (D&C 131:1-4). McConkie was also clear that simply having this celestial marriage is no guarantee of exaltation (The Seven Deadly Heresies). Finally, there are angels who worship before the throne of God, who never received a celestial marriage and are thus single (D&C 76:21 and 132:15-17).	Individuals go to be either with Christ or with the devil and his angels. Those who are part of the body of Christ should know they have eternal life (1 John 5:10-13). They are in Christ's and the Father's hand, and no one can pluck them out of it (Jn. 10:27-30). Christ went to prepare a place for them in His Father's house, but until then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit take up residency in their lives (Jn. 14:1-3, 23-6). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6; and Philippians 1:21-5). The Bible is clear that paradise is the third heaven--the dwelling of God (2 Cor. 12:1-4). The first heaven is the earthly atmosphere (Acts 14:17) and the second heaven is outer space (Jeremiah 8:2). At the judgment, there are those who go with the devil and his angels, and there are those who go to life eternal (Mat. 25:31-46).
What is divine salvation?	Divine salvation is unconditional for resurrection and conditional for eternal life. In one sense, salvation is universal immortality and resurrection by grace alone, and is given to everyone except apostates. In another sense, salvation is eternal life or exaltation into the highest kingdom. The latter is dependent on grace through faith and one's works (2 Ne. 25:23; D&C 76:40-4; and Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 669-71, and 746).	Divine salvation is always conditional. Divine salvation is always from sin and its consequence of separation from God. This salvation is always conditioned upon faith. Until this occurs, God considers the individual dead. When this salvation occurs, one has eternal life (Jn. 5:24; Romans 5; Eph. 2:1-10; and 1 Jn. 5:10-3).
Where is the cross?	The symbol of the cross is absent. Since the Savior lives, LDS focus on his life rather than his death. Though He suffered for our sins on the cross, the greater pain was in the Garden of Gethsemane where the atonement was initiated. The emblem of the cross is not to be revered, and its display is "very strange" (Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Symbol of Our Faith," Ensign, Apr 2005, 2-6; McConkie, "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane," Ensign [May 1985], 9; Mormon Doctrine, 172 and 555; The Promised Messiah, 337 and 552; The Mortal Messiah, 127-128; Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:15-8; "Cross" and "Atonement of Christ," LDS.org).	The symbol of the cross is central. Simply because Jesus lives forever more is no reason to minimize the means by which He paid for our sins. The Bible never teaches that the atonement began in the garden. Rather, it teaches that the atonement happened on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). The cross is foolishness to the perishing, but the power of God to them being saved (1 Cor. 1:18). There is nothing else that deserves boasting except the cross of Christ (Galatians 6:14). The cross symbolizes a way His followers are to live (Luke 9:23). Even the first century Christians used the symbol of the cross as archeology has revealed.
Did Christ die for all sins?	Christ did not die for all sins. Christ did not atone for the murderer, since there is no forgiveness for him "in this world, nor in the world to come." Christ also did not pay for more than a one-time offense of adultery, since such violators cannot be forgiven either (D&C 42:18 and 25-9). Actually, according to one apostle, Christ atoned simply for Adam's sin, and left "us responsible only for our own sins." This apostle goes on to quote the 2nd Article of Faith that claims "men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Le Grand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [1976], 98). Other LDS prophets have taught that there are certain "sins" that one may commit that are beyond the atonement of the Son of God, and one's own blood must be shed in such cases (Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses 3:247; 4:53-4; 4:219-220; and Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:133-6).	Christ did die for all sins. Christ atoned for all sins (Adam's as well as everyone else's). The Lord Jesus took the punishment of everyone on the cross. The debt we could never pay has been completely paid by the Lamb of God, and to those who receive this gift, they are declared "justified" or "not guilty." This is the good news (the gospel) for everyone, including the adulterer and the murderer (2 Samuel 12:13; Isaiah 53:3-12; Mt. 18:21-2; Rom. 3:24; 4:5; 5:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:14-21; 1 Pt. 2:24; and 1