Posted on 02/05/2013 6:54:39 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
Many saw Jesus ascend into heaven on the Mount. Before this, Jesus told them to tarry in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power. Not many days afterwards, on the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire appeared above those who had assembled together, and they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Now, a question that I have asked more than one person is this: were those who spake with tongues saved (believers) before the Day of Pentecost or before the moment they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance?
If these believers were already saved before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, then this means that one does not have to speak in tongues in order to go to heaven.
Secondly, this means that their speaking in tongues was a separate, subsequent, distinct act from them becoming part of the body of Christ, as they were already saved - believers (and thus a part of and the formers of the body) - before the Day of Pentecost, and before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Third, this means that the body of Christ (made up of believers) was already formed before the Day of Pentecost.
Again, were they already saved before the Day of Pentecost? It seems to boil down to that question...
No, I’m asking if God knows what we will do even before we are born.
God is unchanging and omniscient. My birth doesn’t change anything. He knew, He knows, He will know. It’s all the same to Him.
I’m sure you know what I’ll ask next;
If God knows, before you are even born, that you will make an evil decision that results in your going to hell, why does He breath life into you?
I can’t begin to even pretend that a man can understand God’s plan.
He does what He does.
It must serve his purposes somehow.
OK, thanks
Can’t quote the scripture, but the Bible does talk about God knowing us before we were in the womb, interpret that as you may.
OK, thanks
My thought is this. God oversees somewhat of a timeline of existence (of everything). We are a tiny point on that timeline. He can see ahead of us and behind us. During that point in time, we decide what we choose to do during that time. God KNOWS what we are going to choose and do, but He does not CHOOSE for us.
Answer: God's word is clear, Jesus said they were already saved BEFORE the day of Pentecost and before they spoke with tongues:
5Then He poured* water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6So He came* to Simon Peter. He said* to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?” 7Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.” 8Peter said* to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9Simon Peter said* to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” 10Jesus said* to him, “He who HAS BATHED needs only to wash his feet, but IS COMPLETELY CLEAN; AND YOU ARE CLEAN, BUT NOT ALL OF YOU.” 11For He knew THE ONE who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.” (John 13:5-10 NASB, Emphasis added)
6“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, KEEP THEM IN YOUR NAME, THE NAME WHICH YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I WAS KEEPING THE in Your name which You have given Me; and I GUARDED THEM AND NOT ONE OF THEM PERISHED BUT THE SON OF PERDITION, SO THAT SCRIPTURE WOULD BE FULFILLED (John 17:6, 11-12 NASB, Emphasis added)
Question #2: "If these believers were already saved before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, then this means that one does not have to speak in tongues in order to go to heaven.
Answer: According to Jesus' statements above, your premise is true.. The Apostle Paul also makes it quite clear that speaking in tongues is not a prerequisite or required for salvation because he says that not all believers speak in tongues:
29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? ALL DO NOT SPEAK WITH TONGUES, DO THEY (*Note: The construction in the N.T. Greek requires a negative answer to Paul's question = NO, they do not ALL speak with tongues. This is also the case with all of the rest of the questions he asks in verses 29-30)? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. (1 Corinthians 12:29-30 NASB, Emphasis added)
IF speaking in tongues were an integral part of the salvation process and the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Apostle Paul would NEVER have been able to make the above statement because ALL believers would of necessity had to speak in tongues IF speaking in tongues were necessary in order to be saved and get to heaven. It is clear from the above statements and the fact that speaking in tongues in nowhere presented as a part of the Gospel message (cf. John 3:16; Acts 16:31) as a requirement in order to be saved
Question #3: this means that their speaking in tongues was a separate, subsequent, distinct act from them becoming part of the body of Christ, as they were already saved - believers
Answer: Yes, they were saved BEFORE they spoke in tongues and this act of speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost was a separate, distinct and subsequent, and distinct act to their salvation, However you are incorrect in stating that these believers were ALREADY a part of the 'body of Christ' BEFORE the day of Pentecost."
The term: "body of Christ" is a clear reference to the church of Jesus Christ. Since the church of Jesus Christ was not formed, did not begin, nor was it established UNTIL the day of Pentecost, your conclusions above and below are incorrect: Your statements and conclusions are incorrect: "(and thus A PART OF and THE FORMERS OF THE BODY) - BEFORE the Day of Pentecost, and before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance." (Emphasis Added)
The church, the "body of Christ" did not exist, was not created UNTIL the day of Pentecost so your conclusions above and below are incorrect.
"this means that the body of Christ (made up of believers) was already formed before the Day of Pentecost. "
Wrong, because while these disciples were already saved because they had previously believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, they were not yet a part of the body of Christ because it did not exist yet/until the day of Pentecost.
Final Question: "Again, were they already saved before the Day of Pentecost? It seems to boil down to that question..."
As previously shown from Scripture, the answer to your question is "YES", they were already saved BEFORE the Day of Pentecost, BUT they were not yet a part of the body of Christ because the church is not established until the Day of Pentecost when, for the first time the Holy Spirit permanently, bodily indwells all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ from that day forward, uniting them in the newly created "body of Christ" and acting as the permanent seal of their salvation and down-payment of their inheritance:
13In Him, you also, AFTER LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION—HAVING A L S O BELIEVED, YOU WERE SEALED I N H I M WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, 14who is given as A PLEDGE of OUR INHERITANCE, with a view to the REDEMPTION OF GOD'S OWN POSSESSION, to the praise of His glory. ( Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB Emphasis Added)
Do you believe God has a plan for each of us?
I believe He uses our decisions we make throughout life to fit his ultimate plan for His church.
Our decisions influence God’s plan? Does that include all people?
God uses our decisions for His plan for His church. He doesn’t choose those decisions for us. Yes it includes all people’s decisions. God uses all circumstances. He doesn’t choose those circumstances. He KNOWS they will occur, but doesn’t CHOOSE them for us.
I don’t understand your use of ‘His church’. Do you mean Christianity?
So, since He knows everyones decisions throughout history, He bases His plan on that?
He has his plans for His church (which is made up with Christians). I don’t know how He bases His plans. But He doesn’t choose our paths for each person. He uses each persons choices. He does have a path that He sees will best benefit us, but it’s our choice to go down that path or not to.
IIRC, it was a smaller number who were anointed with the Holy Spirit that day -- they then went and saved/converted the thousands thereafter. I would strongly argue that the original group were already saved, having been Christ's apostles and those they added to their number prior to Pentecost.
ok thanks
No problem.
from John 20
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
It seems Jesus had already given them the Holy Spirit, so I think it is clear the disciples were believers, and Pentecost was a separate/secondary event.
So i think you must be referring to some pentecostals that say you’re not saved until you speak in tongues, right? Well, if so, that is simply not true. I have known some petecostals that say you’re not sanctified wholly until you speak in tongues. So many fake it to be in the sanctified crowd.
The 120 that were tarrying in the upper room were believers and whether saved or not saved is not the question, the holy spirit empowered them and so they were in the kingdom of god. But I have a question:
They all spoke in tongues. The people heard in their own languages. So how could they hear with all the other languages being spoken at the same time?
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