Pope: Everyone, Even Atheists, Want to See the Face of God

Asia News ^ | 1/16/13

[marshmallow]

General audience, Benedict XVI defines the Incarnation as "something unimaginable, the face of God can be seen, the process that began with Abraham is fulfilled." The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, he asks "for the great gift" to "proclaim together that Jesus is the Savior of the world."

Vatican City (AsiaNews) - "The desire to know the face of God is in every man, even the atheists," but this desire is only realized by following Christ, in whom, in the Incarnation, "something unimaginable took place, the journey that began with Abraham is fulfilled. He is the Son, the fullness of all Revelation; the mediator who shows us the face of God. "

And "to proclaim together that Jesus is the Saviour of the world" Benedict XVI asked for incessant prayers for "the great gift" of Christian unity in the forthcoming week, which begins on the 18th of this month.

Previously, in his catechesis, he again reflected on the meaning of Christmas, in a commentary on John's Gospel in which the apostle Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. The answer of Jesus, "introduces us to the heart of the Church's Christological faith; For the Lord says: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9).This expression summarizes the novelty of the New Testament, the novelty that appeared in the cave of Bethlehem: God can be seen, he showed his face is visible in Jesus Christ".

The theme of "seeking the face of God" is present throughout the Old Testament, so much so that the Hebrew term "face", occurs no less than 400 times, 100 of which refer to God." The of Jewish religion which the religion forbids all images, "for God can not be depicted," and "can not be reduced to an object," tells us that "God...

[TXnMA]

All of that blather proved nothing. Nothing, that is, except the fact that you obviously feel righteous about cherry-picking Scripture references and using them out of context for you own -- or your organization's -- evil ends.

A lie by misquoting and abusing Scripture is still a lie. And we all know who the Father of Lies is...

~~~~~~~~~

Get thee behind me!

[HarleyD]

Yeah I see something wrong. There are 152 pages in that thing.

I'm sorry if the Westminster Confession of Faith (with biblical references) is so long. Here is a more condensed version without the biblical references. But beware-this still requires reading.

I understand these days everyone is into MacTheology. Sure just "believe on the Lord" and that's all it takes. And then when people bring up more deeper issues (like why does the Psalmist refer to "the wicked" as "the wicked") they're completely baffled. Tell people about election and they say, "YOU'RE WRONG". Talk to people about being chosen in Christ and they say, "ALL I NEED TO DO IS BELIEVE." I understand that it's far more important to watch the game on TV than it is to understand God. We, after all, spend about 10 minutes a week listening to the pastor quote something from scripture. That should be enough.

Sorry but I don't want to just want to be saved. And if it means reading a 152 page document of carefully crafted scripture to try to come to a better understanding of God, then hey, call me crazy. I'm painfully aware that I have to spend my limited time reading and trying to understand. And the reason you're here I suspect is because you'd like to know God better as well. Otherwise you wouldn't be investing your time. But please don't tell me I'm wrong unless you'd like to have some skin in the game-to use the sporting term.

[HarleyD]

Everything? That would mean that our sin nature trumps the will of God. Maybe you mean just the bad stuff?

You fail to understand how God can bring good out of evil. There is no better example of this than the cross of Christ.

[HarleyD]

But that’s a long way from stating that no one who is called cannot resist.

I didn't say it. Paul said it:

Rom_9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

[HarleyD]

Wait no more. It’s rather plainly stated in scripture.

People are confirming to me God created a hell. I'm very thankful that they believe in a hell and that is reasuring. Some don't. But that's not my question to all the "free willers" out here which has been ignored. The question is WHY did God create hell. It doesn't fit with the "Free Will" thinking. In 10,000 years is someone going to regret their choice? If God looked down the time corridor and saw what would happen, why did He do this?

As God pointed out (via Gamecock) hell was created for the vessels of wrath (Rom 9:22). The purpose was for those who are deliberately disobedient. It is so that we might understand grace and mercy as well as righteousness and justice. Many must have overlooked his most excellent post-or perhaps ignored it. Gamecock's post that is. Last time God inscribed anything was a while back with Moses.

[HarleyD]

So are you now saying that man can resist the calling of God?

Where on earth did I state that? No. I'm saying our choice is for evil. Always has been. Always will be until the close of the age. BUT GOD changes our hearts which we all agree on. And we CANNOT resist God's will.

Rom_9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

It is blasphamous to think otherwise as Paul noted. We are the pots. He is the potter.

Now, given the verse above, do you believe a person can resist God's will?

[CynicalBear]

>>But beware-this still requires reading.<<

No need to get snippy. I don’t mind reading son but my point has been that contentions such as the Calvinists are now bringing to the table that they think are important “for salvation” are not. Like I tell the Catholics, Calvinists can surround themselves with their quasi Pharisaical tomes of rules but Jesus made it rather simple.

>>I understand these days everyone is into MacTheology. Sure just "believe on the Lord" and that's all it takes.<<

Mactheology you say! I surely hope I am reading into that “sure” comment and that you didn’t mean to belittle the “believe on the Lord” quote. Is that how you would have reacted had you been the jailor when Paul said those words also? I’m starting to get a picture here and it ain’t good.

>>We, after all, spend about 10 minutes a week listening to the pastor quote something from scripture. That should be enough.<<

Now there’s a statement that indicates a total lack of understanding of how God draws a believer to Himself and what happens to a persons heart upon truly accepting Christ as savior. It’s what I observed in most of the churches I have attended that were cold. Just warm a hard bench on Sunday, recite those tomes of “confessions” either from rote memory or notes and one is branded saved. No heart change but certainly a legalistic requirement from that point to study the intricacies and rules so one can follow the letter of the law. OH, and don’t forget to wear your Sunday best because it would be dishonorable to show up in sac cloth and ashes.

>>Sorry but I don't want to just want to be saved.<<

Wait a minute. Don’t change the subject now. We were talking about what was needed FOR salvation. It has been the contention of the Calvinists here that all those long confessions were required for salvation. Which is it? Are they required or not?

[CynicalBear]

So you are telling us that Romans 9:19 “You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" means that one cannot resist the will of God. Then you must also believe that all will be saved.

1 Tim. 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So is that the Calvinistic view that no one will be lost?

[CynicalBear]

>> The question is WHY did God create hell.<<

I just quoted scripture as to why. It’s plainly stated. Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. There’s the why.

>> hell was created for the vessels of wrath (Rom 9:22).<<

Those angels who rebelled are the “vessels of wrath”.

>> The purpose was for those who are deliberately disobedient.<<

Wait. “deliberately disobedient”? I thought Calvinists believe that they have no choice in the matter but are “predestined” to be disobedient. How can they then be “deliberately disobedient” if they have no choice but were “fashioned” that way?

[CynicalBear]

>>Now, given the verse above, do you believe a person can resist God's will?<<

We just go back to scripture for he answer. I’ll let in answer the question.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

1 Chron. 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

[Diamond]

So you are telling us that Romans 9:19 “You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" means that one cannot resist the will of God. Then you must also believe that all will be saved.

Pardon the interjection here, but I couldn't help noticing that you are using the same logic as Paul's rhetorical antagonist:

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use?
22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Cordially,

[Diamond]

Calvinists by and large tend to deny that they are Fatalists, while at the same time denying that anyone or anything has any power to direct their own destiny in any way

A stipulated 100% operative and free human will has no power to regenerate the dead.

Cordially,

[HarleyD]

No need to get snippy....Calvinists can surround themselves with their quasi Pharisaical tomes of rules but Jesus made it rather simple.

I don't mean to sound (er, write) snippily. The Westminster Confession, as well as the London Baptist Confession, are what Protestants are all about. All they entail are certain biblical truths researched by Protestant founders along with the scriptural references to support the truth. They are things we KNOW about God from the scriptures. There are no rules like eating fish on Fridays.

It’s what I observed in most of the churches I have attended that were cold. Just warm a hard bench on Sunday, recite those tomes of “confessions” either from rote memory or notes and one is branded saved. No heart change but certainly a legalistic requirement from that point to study the intricacies and rules so one can follow the letter of the law. OH, and don’t forget to wear your Sunday best because it would be dishonorable to show up in sac cloth and ashes.

We're not talking about studying rules. We're talking about studying scripture. I see a lot of people throwing out the same 10% of scriptures over and over yet they don't want to deal with the other 90%.

I've attended many churches in my life from the very "stuffy" to the very unorthodox. You know what, God is in the presence of all of them. We are not to judge how others worship. It may not be for us but if it helps others to draw closer to God then that's fine. We don't go to church to be entertained but to confess our sins and worship God.

But it isn't the style of singing or whether we wear a tie or shorts that matter. What matters is whether the scriptures are being taught correctly. We are COMMANDED by God to RIGHTFULLY handle the word of truth. (2 Tim 2:15) And if people think that God does not take this seriously then they need to read Job:

Job 42:7-8 After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."

...It has been the contention of the Calvinists here that all those long confessions were required for salvation.

Can you please show me where on earth you got that? Please provide me with the post references. There is no such thing.

It's a little bit disconcerting of people out here-good healthy and faithful Protestants, those who I have a lot of respect for btw-who make these types of claims. I've seen posts on this thread saying I'm flip-flopping on this or that without the slightest evidence. They throw out ideas that have no support in scripture (try finding one scripture where it states man has "free will"). When asked to define what they mean they cannot or it's so convoluted that people scratch their heads. When I've pointed out the idea of Hell among "Free Will" thinkers cannot be supported, they offer no references, no scriptures, and no theological support. What scarier, when I pointed out that the free will concept on hell involves universalism or purgatory, people here just seems to be "Ho-Hum". Yet they make the claim that Calvinists are too legalistic.

No, Reformers aren't legalistic. They're simply aghast at those who don't understand the tenants of the Protestant faith set down by our Protestant forefathers. What they're really embrassing is Catholicism or worst.

[metmom]

Holy cow.

You’re using arguments I expect to hear from Catholics - easy believism type accusations.

[metmom]

But that's not my question to all the "free willers" out here which has been ignored. The question is WHY did God create hell. It doesn't fit with the "Free Will" thinking. In 10,000 years is someone going to regret their choice? If God looked down the time corridor and saw what would happen, why did He do this?

It has been answered. Read the posts again. Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

And the answer is really no different from the predestinationist position for why God created hell. If God looking down at time, saw that He'd be sending people to hell, why'd He do it anyway?

Will some regret their choice? No doubt, but that's called living with the consequences. They got what they wanted - existence without God.

[metmom]

A stipulated 100% operative and free human will has no power to regenerate the dead.

There is no such thing as a stipulated 100% operative and free human will because nobody or no thing can operate outside of God.

The definition I've seen the Calvinists use for freewill is completely unrealistic and irrelevant. It's useless for the discussion and just addresses something which cannot exist, therefore is not worth wasting the time on.

[CynicalBear]

I find it rather intriguing that you double down on God making some people for destruction because it’s “His will” but neglect to address my question about the verses that state God’s will that “all men be saved” and “none should parish”. Is there a reason for that?

[HarleyD]

We just go back to scripture for he answer. I’ll let in answer the question. ... Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

And the reaction to Stephen's statement:

Act 7:54 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him....Act 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him.

Wow, look at that. No one said, "Hey, you're right. Could you please share the Four Spiritual Laws with me?" Not even Saul.

All of us resist the Holy Spirit. God must circumcise our hearts. Stephen was simply being faithful to God to share the truth. If souls are saved it is because God changes the heart. If martyrs are made it is because God willed it for the betterment of His church. It was this incident that Paul remembered.

[HarleyD]

It has been answered. Read the posts again. Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

Perhaps I'm not being clear. I know that hell was created for the devil and his angels. But if God could look down the time tunnel and see what would happen, knowing Adam would fall, why would He do that as a loving God?

And the answer is really no different from the predestinationist position

Yes there is a difference. I'm saying everyone will be exactly where they want to be. This isn't the same as "living with consequences for all eternity".

[CynicalBear]

>> We're not talking about studying rules.<<

Oh but you most certainly are. In order to be a member of those Calvinist churches must you profess to believe the entire confessions? Can one be in one of those churches “in good standing” if one believes in free will?

>> We are COMMANDED by God to RIGHTFULLY handle the word of truth. (2 Tim 2:15)<<

Did you read down to this verse in 1 Tim 2?

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

>> And if people think that God does not take this seriously then they need to read Job<<

Surely you don’t mean to insinuate that Job totally understood and was discussing the concept of free will are you? Job simply kept his faith in God rather than denounce it to get his health and goods back.

>> Can you please show me where on earth you got that? Please provide me with the post references. There is no such thing.<<

Well, maybe you could define the term “heretical” as you use it then. And if those confessions are not required for salvation why are they required to be stated as a belief before someone can be confirmed in the church?