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Childish behavior |
Posted on 01/16/2013 8:57:49 AM PST by marshmallow
General audience, Benedict XVI defines the Incarnation as "something unimaginable, the face of God can be seen, the process that began with Abraham is fulfilled." The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, he asks "for the great gift" to "proclaim together that Jesus is the Savior of the world."
Vatican City (AsiaNews) - "The desire to know the face of God is in every man, even the atheists," but this desire is only realized by following Christ, in whom, in the Incarnation, "something unimaginable took place, the journey that began with Abraham is fulfilled. He is the Son, the fullness of all Revelation; the mediator who shows us the face of God. "
And "to proclaim together that Jesus is the Saviour of the world" Benedict XVI asked for incessant prayers for "the great gift" of Christian unity in the forthcoming week, which begins on the 18th of this month.
Previously, in his catechesis, he again reflected on the meaning of Christmas, in a commentary on John's Gospel in which the apostle Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. The answer of Jesus, "introduces us to the heart of the Church's Christological faith; For the Lord says: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9).This expression summarizes the novelty of the New Testament, the novelty that appeared in the cave of Bethlehem: God can be seen, he showed his face is visible in Jesus Christ".
The theme of "seeking the face of God" is present throughout the Old Testament, so much so that the Hebrew term "face", occurs no less than 400 times, 100 of which refer to God." The of Jewish religion which the religion forbids all images, "for God can not be depicted," and "can not be reduced to an object," tells us that "God...
(Excerpt) Read more at asianews.it ...
Interesting. Tell me Harley, has time begun where God is? IOW, is God currently subject to the constraints of time?
But does God make decisions now?
It depends on whether or not "now" exists in the realm where God dwells. If God is a prisoner of time, then the answer would be different than if God were not subject to the constraints of "now".
Is a decision made by God subject to the constraints of the "time" in which such a decision is made?
FWIW, the Catholic Church is the only Christian body which universally condemns abortion. Many of the denominations founded on Calvinism have taken a very loose interpretation on whether or not abortion is something to be condemned or celebrated. Being a "dutchboy" you should be familiar with the state of Apostasy which has infected the Dutch people in General and many of the Dutch Reformed churches in particular.
But I digress.
While the scriptures teach that by nature men are condemned, it is not by nature that they are consigned to Hell. Their consignment will be based on the judgment of God for their sins. If God judges and consigns men to hell based on their sinful nature, then Hell will be overpopulated with the souls of infants and aborted fetuses.
ROFL! Sorry bout that. It would appear that I ended with no way for you to respond without appearing irreverent or simply babbling didn’t I. Didn’t really mean to do that. My intent was simply to keep the level of debate to a discussion that was not contentious or in any way leaving the impression with those who read the thread that this type of difference doesn’t affect salvation.
I can’t help but chuckle a little thinking of how you must have sat there wondering how one responds now? I suppose I could be smug and think “guess I pinned him on that one!” Just kidding. I didn’t even think at the time that that verse may have that affect. Sometimes scripture does leave us knowing we need to “search the scriptures” further ey?
John 15:18-25 18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’
Let's keep this in context. Jesus was talking to the disciples He chose to walk with Him in his ministry here on earth for three years and was eating the Passover with.
Taking it to mean that He chose them for salvation, therefore He chooses all men for salvation, is a rather loose interpretation of that passage.
It clearly means that He chose them to be his disciples. Any more than that is reading into it.
Seeing verses cherry picked IMMEDIATELY raises red flags for me.
There’s that group salvation mentatlity again. So should all non Catholics assign guilt to all Catholics for the sins of the RCC during the inquisition? Or how about the cover up of the RCC of the pedophile priests? Is that how that group thing works?
What the heck are you talking about?
You missed the point, my FRiend.
Then please, no more ITim2 without context and read the whole of Rom. 9 and tell us what you believe Paul is getting at. Make that the whole of the Letter to the Romans.
What was the point?
Absolutely, but now I'll be searching in the hope I don't babble or get irrelevent! Sorry for sounding contentious, seriously. What I mean as vigorous, concerned may come across my fingers as harsh, empty chatter. I need to be more careful.
While that may be a fine line the point I am trying to make is that whatever one understands pertaining to that, it’s not terribly relevant to the real message of scripture. Therefore making a point of contention is needless.
What is interesting is how these types of discussions devolve into essentialism dribble. What precisely does it matter when time began or whether God is in, out or somehow jumps in/out of time? What I quoted from was Paul's writings (Rom 8). I could just imagine someone asking the Apostle Paul, "Hey, Paul, is God in time?" He probably would have thrown up his hands and said, "Oy vey!"
God is all knowing. That means He knows everything. So why on earth (or heaven) would God consider different possibilities? He already has all the information He needs. Every choice He makes is the perfect choice because He knows everything. And He is all powerful so that He can make the perfect choice happen. The angels don't sit around and say, "Um...you want to think somemore about that decision."
Man operates on limited knowledge which is WHY Adam failed (among other reasons). We make decisions. And unless our decision making process is enlighted by God, we will continue to make bad decisions. God fortunately is not like us. He's almost like Mary Poppins knowing the right things to do and say. However, unlike Mary Poppins who was "Practically perfect in every way.", He is perfect in every way. And He doesn't need an umbrella.
Still waiting for the answer to my question....and waiting...and waiting...
You're assuming that men desire and want to go to heaven. But what if men were created with an independent streak just enough that they would be willing to suffer the torment of hell for all eternity rather than to go to heaven and submit to God. This isn't as far fetched as it might seem. C.S. Lewis writes that man's inclination is underscored under the motto, "It is better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven." The rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazarus only ask father Abraham for a drop of water to quench his thirst - never did he want out of his predicament. People, left to their devices, love to sin.
Everybody will be exactly where they want to be in the end. And as strange as that might sound, this is because our loving God knows what's best for each of us. You won't have someone 10,000 years from now saying, "Well, I wish I had made a different choice." That, btw, is precisely the problem universalists get into and then deny the existence of hell altogether. We try to fit God into a shoebox by inventing false doctrines of universalism or purgatory. God knows what is best for each of us.
The question isn't why would God make people just to send them to hell. The real question is why would God make people to be His adoptive sons and daughters?
Perhaps it is not...to you. As I review the message of grace in the Scriptures, it strikes me as enormously, monumentally important whether a person believes that salvation comes to people because God chose them OR it comes to them because they chose God.
If I am explaining the Gospel to someone, I will tell them:
"God has identified some of the people in His creation on whom He is going to pour His grace in a way that will solve every one of the real problems they have. Those are: 1. They are broken and at war with Him. 2. They are not righteous, as the Scriptures describe this. If God has them in His crosshairs, they will not be able to shake Him, no matter how they try, no matter how much they wish He would leave them alone. Why? Because they are written on His hand (Isaiah). He will adopt them, He will rescue them, then He will make them alive from the dead.
Then He will begin the process of opening their eyes, just like newborn babes to just how terrible their sin problem is and how expensive it was for Him to pay for it. It cost Him His life, so that it did not cost them their life.
He will break their hearts, cause them to begin to want Him, revere Him, honor Him, love Him. There is no going back because He infused this trust in Him called "faith". It is not a feeling, or an emotion. It is the conviction of things others cannot understand, an assurance that He has you in His hands (Heb. 11).
If this sounds like something happening to you, then it is possible that God has elected you and is in the process of rescuing you from yourself. Your evil, rebellious heart may go through enormous turmoil as He essentially brings you back from the dead. But, there is nothing that you can contribute to His work, nothing you can take away. The reason you will be safe is that nothing in creation can separate you from His love (Rom. 8).
But, make no mistake, the remaining years here on earth will be difficult, sometimes agonizingly so. Others who have been drawn into His family have lost their physical lives because of the hatred the world feels against Him. However, in a hundred years, you won't remember any of that, you will be standing in the most unbelievable place of light, speaking gratefulness to Him because of the great mercy He has shown you...if you are among His elect."
That small description sounds much different than the normal "altar call" or 5 Spiritual Laws or Bird Book or passing out tracts. It doesn't even have a sawdust trail. But, when I see the way Paul was hunted down, and the way Paul told other folks about the Messiah (Acts), those other "man-centered messages" do not seem biblical. Even our word "repent" actually derives from the Greek word to "change your mind", not "feel bad about your sin."
I certainly see a great deal of discussion needed with folks who believe they are becoming Christians to probe the issue of sin. That is not left out. But, it is in the context of God drawing His children to Himself at the expense of His blood for this sin.
Pardon the long post, but I hope you can see the connection I see between the issues of "free will" and salvation. Grace to you, my brother.
I think you had better go back and read my posts again. No where did I say the “they chose God” and to infer or project into what I said is disingenuous. The rest of your post may have been very good but lost it’s relevance to the discussion with the above quote.
You start down this path and one could say EVERY verse was directed to His disciples and not us. But then you have a problem with:
We see from this text:
1) One can only come to Christ if the Father draws them,
2) Jesus will raise them up
3) They will be taught by God
4) Only those who hear and learned from the Father comes to Christ
That's a pretty powerful text. And our Lord Jesus told it to the Jews-not the disciples.
That is a most beautiful post. People in the first century were willing to be burned at the stake rather than submit to heretical doctrine. Paul told the Galatians, “Oh foolish Galatians...”. Now we just excuse it as “You have your belief and I have mine.”
IIRC it was you who brought up the time dimension issue. FWIW the issue of when and how God made his decisions and decrees and whether time is a separate dimension from eternity does impact the issue of whether the entire existence of the universe is governed by the predestination of God according to His foreknowledge or whether the universe is fixed in some kind of irreversible cosmic fatalism.
Calvinists by and large tend to deny that they are Fatalists, while at the same time denying that anyone or anything has any power to direct their own destiny in any way. Well by definition it seems that what you are populating here is an unchangeable destiny for the whole of existence fixed in time and eternity.
In Genesis God appears to be planning the Universe by making such decisions as "Let Us make man in Our image".
Is that an Historical fact or a mythological allegory?
define “heretical”.
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