my favorite pillar of morality, Luther, how polygamy cannot be denied based on the scripture alone
He is your favorite person to use as if he were a pope and that SS requires we follow such, and which distracts from popes who were known immoral persons even before their election. In any case, Luther's statement about polygamy would not be a valid argument even if Luther was giving broad approval, as the fact that one can teach some error - which Rome allows of itself outside infallible teaching (if you can discern them all) - does not negate the primacy of the source.
RCs also misinterpret both Scripture and Rome, both of which are subject to interpretation, and the can claim no infallible interpreter of the latter. And sola ecclesia enables autocratic propagation and perpetuation of error and required assent to it, in contrast to doctrine being established based upon Scriptural substantiation, which is how the church began in dissent from those who sat in power as the stewards of Holy Write and inheritor of Divine promises, but who presumed they could teach as doctrine the mere "tradition of the elders."
And in regard to polygamy, Luther was wrong when he judged Scripture as not forbidding it, though he was doing so in the explicit NT sense, as the Christian prohibition, in contrast to the OT where God allowed — and even seems to sometimes give — men more than one wife, is a derived one, but valid.
However, while it is your practice to use select quotes of a man whom we do not look to as a pope, and whose theology, like that of CFs, was in a stage of development, the whole of Luther's teaching shows he forbade Christians to engage in polygamy, unless in an extreme case of necessity. Today it is still difficult when tribal polygamist turn to Christ as their wives look to him for support and the children to him as their father.
“Moreover, although the patriarchs had many wives, Christians may not follow their example, because there is no necessity for doing this, no improvement is obtained thereby, and, especially, there is no word of God to justify this practise, while great offense and trouble may come from it. Accordingly, I do not believe that Christians any longer have this liberty. God would have to publish a command that would declare such a liberty." (Letter to Joseph Levin Metzsch of December 9, 1526)
And i consider the formal papal sanction of torture of theological opponents by Rome to be more serious.
Innocent’s Bull [Ad Extirpanda], promulgated on May 15, 1252, by Pope Innocent IV, prescribes that captured heretics, being “murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb.” — Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a.) http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html
The fact that Rome now forbids torture, and uphold religious freedom and free access to the Bible, and other things in contrast to the past, simply examples how sola ecclesia allows autocratic authority to do whatever it will.
When Sola Scriptura means "holding Scripture as supreme", that is correct and wholly Catholic doctrine.
Rome does not hold Scripture as the supreme standard, but effectively places herself as this, for she claims to define both what Scripture consists up and its meaning, having defined herself as being assuredly infallible. Her teachings need not rest upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, only that they do not contradict Scripture, but as she is the autocratic judge of that, then she can dismiss all reproof to the contrary. It is quite the system. In contrast, under SS doctrine must be established based upon Scriptural substantiation, thus by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. " (2 Corinthians 4:2)
You do the bare minimum of works that faith requires, which is not surprising since to you, you are all saved anyway.
In post after post you have relied on fallacies, including using liberal Protestants for whom the Scriptures are not the wholly inspired Word of God and are to be basically taken literally (unlike in so many approved notes of Rome) as the supreme transcendent material standard, to link SS and SF to moral laxity. But which is what Rome under sola ecclesia is abundantly evidenced to foster. But which evidence is ignored, thus a few stats will be provided, or it is dismissed . However, again, Rome treats them as members in life and in death, and this treatment manifests what Rome fosters overall and really believes (as it manifests how she interprets her words) And while we can leave liberal churches for better ones, RCs are stuck with their Ted Kennedy's.
73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33%, and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28% http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/53
94.4% of Evangelical Protestants and 84.9% of Catholics believe that Jesus is the son of God. 42.1% of the former and 46.1% of the latter say they pray once a day or more. http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf
47.8% of the Evangelicals and 11.8% of Catholics affirm the Bible is Literally true. 6.5% of the former and 19.8% of the latter see it as an ancient book of history and legends. ^
42.1% of Evangelical Protestants and 7.1% of Catholics Read Scripture weekly or more. ^
Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23% ^
Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%. ^
Donating Money (during the last month): Church of Christ churches were the highest at 29%, with Catholics being the lowest at 12% ^
American evangelicals gave four times as much money, per person, to churches as did all other church donors in 2001. 88 percent of evangelicals and 73 percent of all Protestants donated to churches. John Ronsvalle and Sylvia Ronsvalle, The State of Church Giving through 2004: Will We Will? 16th ed. (Champaign, Ill.: Empty Tomb, 2006),12. http://www.generousgiving.org/stats#
A Catholic survey reports that 4 percent of US Catholics described themselves as “very” involved in parish or religious activities other than attending Mass, and 11% as “somewhat involved, and 64% as “not involved at all.” Among weekly (or more) attendees (approx 22% of adult Catholics), 13% were very” involved, 29% “somewhat involved and 25% not involved at all.” http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/FRStats/devotionpractice.pdf
Church attendance [2002-2005]: Evangelicals at approx. 60 percent showed the highest percentage of those who reported they attended services weekly or almost weekly, with 30% going more than once a week. Catholics were at 45 percent (9% more than once a week), and Jews 15 percent. Gallup poll. between 2002 and 2005. http://www.christianpost.com/article/20060418/weekly-attendance-highest-among-Evangelical-churches.htm
A Catholic study reported that the percentage of U.S. adult Catholics who say they attended Mass once a week or more (i.e., those attending every week) was 24% in 2012. http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html
Orthodox (29%), Mainline Churches (28%), and Catholics (27%) led Christian Churches in affirming that the Scriptures were written by men and were not the word of God, versus just and 7% of Evangelical Churches, who instead rightly affirm its full inspiration of God. ^
Catholics broke with their Church's teachings more than most other groups, with just six out of 10 Catholics affirming that God is "a person with whom people can have a relationship", and three in 10 describing God as an "impersonal force." 2008 The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. http://religions.pewforum.org/comparisons#
40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59% http://www.gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx
Committed Roman Catholics (church attendance weekly or almost) versus Non-R.C. faithful church goers (see the below as as morally acceptable): Abortion: 24% R.C. vs. 19% Non-R.C.; Sex between unmarried couples: 53% vs. 30%; Baby out of wedlock: 48% vs. 29%; Homosexual relations: 44% vs. 21%; Gambling: 67% vs. 40%; Divorce: 63 vs. 46% ^
50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent. Ellison Research, March 11, 2008 http://ellisonresearch.com/releases/20080311.htm http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080312/study-behaviors-americans-consider-sinful.htm
Of never-married adult females, 25% of Evangelicals, 11% of Catholics and 14% of Mainline Protestants professed never to be have had sexual relations. Countering Conventional Wisdom: New Evidence on Religion and Contraceptive Use, Guttmacher Institute, April. 2011
Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants. Alan Guttmacher Institute http://www.catholicleague.org/research/Catholic_women_and_abortion.htm
26 percent of Catholics (2007) polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivocal position on abortion Catholic World Report; 2997 survey of 1,000 Catholic Americans by Roper Center for Public Opinion Research at the University of Connecticut
46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong. ^
31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly, 2004) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases. 2004, The Gallup Organization Gallup Survey for Catholics Speak Out: 802 Catholics, May 1992, MOE ± 4%
When ask to choose, three-fourths of all Protestant pastors surveyed said [2009] they are pro-life, and 13 percent said they were pro-choice. LifeWay Research; http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=LifeWay-Research-protestant-pastors-share-views-on-gay-marriage-abortion
In a 2010 LifeWay Research survey 77 percent of American Protestant pastors (57% of mainline versus 87% evangelical) strongly disagree with same-sex marriage, with 6% percent somewhat disagreeing, and 5% being somewhat in agreement and 10 percent strongly agreeing. (5% of evangelical).
Only 3% of evangelical pastors (versus 11% mainline) somewhat agree that there is nothing wrong with homosexual marriage.
11% of evangelical pastors (versus 30% mainline) somewhat agree that homosexual civil unions are acceptable, with 67% of the former and 38% of the latter strongly disagreeing with homosexual civil unions. October 2010 LifeWay Research survey of 1,000 randomly selected Protestant pastors. http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=LifeWay-Research-protestant-pastors-oppose-homosexual-marriage
A 2002 nationwide poll of 1,854 priests in the United States and Puerto Rico reported that 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations; 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. However, nearly four in 10 younger priests in 2002 described themselves as conservative, and were more likely to regard as "always a sin" such acts as premarital sex, abortion, artificial birth control, homosexual relations, etc., and three-fourths said they were more religiously orthodox than their older counterparts. Los Angeles Times (extensive) nationwide survey (2002). http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/reports/LAT-Priest-Survey.pdf http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_2_39/ai_94129129/pg_2
49 percent of Roman Catholic priests affirmed that it was always a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, often, 25 percent; and never, 19 percent.
15 percent of the Roman Catholic priests polled listed themselves as "gay or on the homosexual side." Among younger priests 23 percent did so.
44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order. ^
Catholics testify [2010] to showing more support (in numbers) for legal recognitions of same-sex relationships than members of any other Christian tradition, and Americans overall. Almost three-quarters of Catholics favor either allowing gay and lesbian people to marry or allowing them to form civil unions (43% and 31% respectively). Only 22% of Catholics said there should be no legal recognition of a gay couple’s relationship. (PRRI, Pre--election American Values Survey, 9/2010; http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catholics-and-LGBT-Issues-Survey-Report.pdf.)
Evangelical Protestants are the most politically conservative Christian tradition. Within each tradition, those with literal views of the Bible are more politically conservative than is their tradition overall. Catholics that are Biblical literalists (11.8%) hold more conservative political views than the Catholic population in general does. The Biblical literalist Catholic is as politically conservative as the Biblical literalist who is Evangelical (47.8%) or Mainline Protestant. (11.2%) American Piety in the 21st Century, Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf
34% of weekly Mass attending Catholics are Democrats, and an additional 19% are not affiliated with a party but lean toward the Democrats (53% identifying or leaning as Democrats). 28% of weekly attenders are Republicans and an additional 17% lean toward being a Republican (43 percent identifying or leaning as Republicans). Thus Democrats have a 10% point edge among weekly attendees, Catholics who attend Mass less than weekly are even more likely to be a Democrat rather than a Republican. http://cara.georgetown.edu/NewsandPress/PressReleases/pr061808.pdf
Much more: http://peacebyjesus.tripod.com/rc-stats_vs._evang.html
Now i have a headache due to so much reading and wrong glasses.
"Statistics are no substitute for judgment."
-- Henry Clay
I think I explained that. I know Protestants have no popes, but in Luther's shenanigans -- both with his "marriage" and his unbridled masturbation habit, -- I see a pattern of individualistic self-indulgence in Protestantism that has lead over time to bizarre interpretations of the Holy Scripture and the moral decay of the modern Western society, gay "rights" and all. Maybe you needed a pope, of some kind.
Of course he weaseled out of his pro-polygamy scriptural stance. I would like to know which were his scriptural arguments for monogamy though.
she claims to define both what Scripture consists up and its meaning
But we do so in accordance with consensus patrem. There is that continuity of hermeneutics, you know. You should have it, too.
Yes, plenty of lay Catholics do not know their doctrines. For that, too, I blame YOU KNOW WHOM.
I got to run. Thank you for taking the trouble with this lengthy post; I will return to it if need be.
using liberal Protestants for whom the Scriptures are not the wholly inspired Word of God
Well, liberal Protestants as just as Protestant as you are. I haven't read from, nor met, an Episcopalian, or a Methodist who would not ardently defend Sola Scriptura and then proceed with it wherever his proclivities lead him. Your interpretation of the scripture differs, that is all; the fact is you both pick whatever you like from the scripture and ignore what you don't like or explain it away. You both lack the patristic authority of the Early Fathers.
However, while I may, of course, point out to liberal Protestants just as you, quite justifiably, can point out to liberal Catholics, my most hotly disputed point on this thread is not that, but the overall trend toward individualism, making the Christian religion fit modern sensibilities; that may not be modern American liberism of the Kennedys, but liberalism it is. Protestantism is by definition liberal, because Sola Scriptura is a liberal doctrine, leaving the Hoyl Scripture at the mercy of the individual reading it. When Catholics do something like that, they go against the grain of the Catholic culture, and it is the Reformation that enabled them and gave them rhetorical tools. When a Protestant discovers that polygamy is OK if there is a "necessity", or female bishops, or homosexual "marriage" are OK because there is nothing in the Bible against it, -- he is simply doing what Luther started, reading the Scripture with his own understanding.
The fact that Rome now forbids torture, and uphold religious freedom and free access to the Bible, and other things in contrast to the past, simply examples how sola ecclesia allows autocratic authority to do whatever it will.
One should distinguish development of practice from development of dogma. It is no different than recognizing that the earth is round or bacteria cause disease: torture was thought of as a proper method of substantiating evidence, and now we know better. It is remarkable that despite that being a best prosecutorial practice, the Church called for applying torture mildly. The changed attitude regarding torture does not prove fluidity of the Catholic dogmas regarding the core of our faith.