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To: Elsie

Why, we indeed had sinful popes; in fact only some of the popes were recognized as saints. To think that if one is Catholic by religious affiliation means the one is “saved” is bringing the false salvation by faith alone concept to Catholicism. While Catholics receive special assurances of salvation through the sacraments of the Church available to them, they are judged just like Protestants by their works and therefore saved only when a lifetime of mature well-formed faith has lead them to union with Christ.


4,813 posted on 01/08/2013 5:23:07 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
While Catholics receive special assurances of salvation through the sacraments of the Church available to them...

Well; that IS special!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VbX22w9qws

4,815 posted on 01/08/2013 5:32:44 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex
While Catholics receive special assurances of salvation through the sacraments of the Church available to them, they are judged just like Protestants by their works and therefore saved only when a lifetime of mature well-formed faith has lead them to union with Christ.

Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

4,830 posted on 01/08/2013 7:50:43 AM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: annalex; Elsie
Why, we indeed had sinful popes; in fact only some of the popes were recognized as saints. To think that if one is Catholic by religious affiliation means the one is “saved” is bringing the false salvation by faith alone concept to Catholicism. While Catholics receive special assurances of salvation through the sacraments of the Church available to them, they are judged just like Protestants by their works and therefore saved only when a lifetime of mature well-formed faith has lead them to union with Christ.

The point has, yet again, been eluded in favor of trying to turn the issue back to non-Catholic Christians and the Gospel. I don't think anyone has suggested, nor imagined, that Roman Catholic Popes were or were expected to be "sinless". That they were expected to BE Christians is not out of the realm of expectations, though. These Popes that have gone down in history (note: not biased nor prejudicial history) as depraved and wicked demonstrated by their ongoing grossly sinful behavior that they were NOT Christians much less qualified to be leaders of the church. We have plenty of Scriptures that outline how a leader within the church is to behave and also the process to be followed when anyone - leadership or not - is to be disciplined when they refuse to repent and continue to bring shame upon the name of Christ.

The issue is why these men were not only elected to their positions by those who knew of their failings but why they were not deposed when their wickedness became public knowledge and scandal? It IS a legitimate question and the slip-sliding evasion of the point is not lost on anyone. I believe it is major proof that the Catholic Church does NOT have their self-defined divine right of carrying on the office of the Apostles with their specific gifts and enablements nor their promises of infallibility by which the "gates of hell" would not prevail. That is the point.

4,838 posted on 01/08/2013 3:15:45 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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