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To: daniel1212; WVKayaker; CynicalBear; Running On Empty; metmom; boatbums
Good post.

all those statements about Prots now being born again and part of the body of Christ, are misleading

Yes they are. They are a "lure" as an Orthodox would say. The proof is that they make people harden in their Protestantism, and therefore denial of true Christ. If, however, the love of Christ leads people to seek understanding and desire for union with the Church, then these are not far from the Kingdom, and may end up saved. First step is in every case dismissal as false the doctrine of ready-made instant salvation. From that point on, a salvation of a Protestant may occur, but he cannot stay Protestant if he goes all the way.

effectively sanctions the corporeal punishment (and death) by the Inquisition in the past

It is impossibly to convert by force and I never suggested otherwise. The fixation on the Inquisition is a reflexive defense Protestants have as they cannot justify their beliefs by the scripture, but want to cling on to them.

4,083 posted on 01/03/2013 5:31:13 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
It is impossibly to convert by force and I never suggested otherwise.

Your chosen religion sure thought that one would RECANT by force!

4,095 posted on 01/03/2013 7:51:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex; WVKayaker; CynicalBear; Running On Empty; metmom; boatbums; caww; ...
>all those statements about Prots now being born again and part of the body of Christ, are misleading< Yes they are. They are a "lure" as an Orthodox would say.

Well, like as i said, it is good that Rome has annalex to interpret Rome for those Catholics and Protestants who might understand modern RC official statements and papal teaching that properly baptized Prots are "incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church,"

but nevertheless they are "joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power," "even to the shedding of blood [which] has become a common inheritance of Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Protestants,"

with saints coming from the faithful "of all Churches and Ecclesial Communities which gave them entrance into the communion of salvation" (thus you could pray to Prot saints!) even though they "do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."

And which is one of the things you must require them to repent from to be part of the body and be saved.

Not that i do not understand why you hold to SSPX ecclesiology, as that is indeed more consistent with historical teaching (but so would sanction of torture, and some other things, and thus some Roman "reformulation" of her reformulation (meaning redefining) of the past is necessary to avoid the charge that Rome altered in any way the ecclesiology of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", which modernism you find un-Catholic. And i agree, but at some point it often necessary to find out what kind of Catholicism is being defended.

It is impossibly to convert by force and I never suggested otherwise.

It is denied that this is what the use of torture was for, but Roman teaching states that "as a perfect and independent society provided with all the means for attaining its end," (as i think you say, a law unto itself, "It has, therefore, the right to admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction." — Catholic Encyclopedia Jurisdiction http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm

And i recalled something in the past on this subject of men martyred under Rome (though you consider them heretics), in which you expressed that you did not know if they were saved at the last, but that "our best effort [which included coercive punishment] was to ensure their salvation. If they were, they were Catholic when they died." And as your rejection of torture now is due to the more modern rejection of it yet popes and weighty men advocated it in the past, then do you not sanction her use of it then?

The fixation on the Inquisition is a reflexive defense Protestants have as they cannot justify their beliefs by the scripture, but want to cling on to them

Rather, it is because we must our beliefs by the scripture, the more fundamental having the most warrant, that we oppose this. Yet early Prots did likewise, as reformation is not the work of one day or two, and there is much to unlearn from Rome and worldly ways which we too easily adopt to achieve our means.

4,101 posted on 01/03/2013 8:44:22 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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