Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

You need to understand that the language of the Church was just forming just as the priesthood was..

I do understand that development, and thus it did not follow the distinction the use of hiereus consistently made in Scripture over 150 times to specify priests as they belonged to a special class, while never being used thusly for the elders/overseeers.

681 posted on 12/12/2012 7:17:37 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)

My point is not so much to impugn Luther..

If it wasn't then it would be hard to outdo what you did if it was!

682 posted on 12/12/2012 7:18:04 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)

they did escape in a barrel -- that is no fantasy....

"They," as in Luther and Kathrina, which is how you made it sound, did not escape in a barrel. (And to be technical, one account says it was among the barrels.) Paul used a rope when he needed to escape.

the crime is the same: people not free to marry..". And yes, Rome is the supreme authority for Christians on earth

That, as said, is the real basis of the argument, and which we find self declared and unwarranted.

683 posted on 12/12/2012 7:18:15 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)

If you aren’t repetitive, I won’t be.

684 posted on 12/12/2012 7:26:33 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

The Catholic church is not a measure of holiness either.

685 posted on 12/12/2012 7:27:22 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: annalex; presently no screen name

And yes, Rome is the supreme authority for Christians on earth.

Correction: And yes, Rome is the supreme authority for ~~Christians~~ Catholics on earth.

Since the terms *Catholic* and *Christian* are not necessarily interchangeable, that it a more accurate statement.

Christians may be found within that Catholic church, that is true, but the rest of them are free from bondage to that organization. The only people accepting it as their supreme authority are Catholics and the RCC claiming it is does not make it so.

686 posted on 12/12/2012 7:32:14 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

I heard a line in a movie tonight that made me think of some of those we encounter here at times. It is that, “a fanatic’s weakness is that he harbors secret doubts”. I don’t wonder sometimes that the going on and on of the more “shrill” ones doesn’t hide some secret doubts that they are trying to overcompensate for. The line from Hamlet, “the lady doth protest too much, methinks”, comes to mind.

687 posted on 12/12/2012 7:37:39 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

The whole concept of monasteries and convents is another area where the RCC disobeys Christ.

Jesus last command was......

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

His command was to *Go*, not to cloister oneself into a little religious community and go about doing allegedly holy works there, whatever those might be.

That is not how the gospel is spread. That is not how others besides themselves are served, the naked clothed, or the hungry fed.

Mother Theresa had the right idea with getting out there and getting her hands dirty.

Don't see much of that coming from someone who withdraws from the world.

688 posted on 12/12/2012 7:42:14 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

To: annalex; metmom

Obviously I cannot know about lusting or not lusting but they did escape in a barrel -- that is no fantasy.

A LUST FOR GOSSIP!!

And yes, Rome is the supreme authority for Christians on earth.

WRONG! And thanks for Luther and his obedience to God!

GOD'S WORD is The FINAL Authority for ALL. Praise GOD!

689 posted on 12/12/2012 7:55:08 PM PST by presently no screen name

Got any evidence?

Got any evidence that satan cures cancer like your fellow cohorts are saying?

690 posted on 12/12/2012 8:27:00 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))

Are you a mormon,methodist, lutheran, etc... or are you non denominational?

Just curious.

A non answer means you doubt your faith.

691 posted on 12/12/2012 8:32:28 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))

To: annalex; metmom

I documented the shenanigans I accuse him of, and besides they are public knowledge.

They are heavenly knowledge. ALL your words have been documented in the heavenlies and YOU WILL HAVE TO ANSWER for EVERY ONE. And Luther is there and you will be shown the TRUTH 1Tim 2;3,4 and you have to answer why you ignored God's Truth and continued with your worldly shenanigans as it has NO place in heaven!

That's fine. Like with Elsie I might ignore some of your chatter, but I will respond to anything of substance and not repetitive.

It doesn't matter what you ignore or what you believe! Get over yourself - it ALL ABOUT JESUS/THE WORD. The Way, THE TRUTH, The Life.

692 posted on 12/12/2012 8:49:25 PM PST by presently no screen name

Just curious.

Just nosy.

A non answer means you doubt your faith.

Not answering could mean someone isn't going to contribute to another's gossip.

693 posted on 12/12/2012 8:54:04 PM PST by presently no screen name

To: stfassisi; Elsie; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; RnMomof7

Actually, there is a book called “New Age medicine” by a doctor (not Ntl. Enquire stuff) who witnessed occultic things down in S. America that leaves your jaw open. http://www.amazon.com/New-Age-Medicine-Christian-Perspective/dp/0830812148

$ 4.00 used and quite a read.

694 posted on 12/12/2012 8:54:42 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)

Every example we have in Scripture of people being healed was it was automatic or nearly so; the healings were truly miraculous (no limping off or partial healings); all those healed gave glory to God (not the one who necessarily did the healing touch); their healing resulted in saving faith in Christ and there was no question that it was God who did the healing.

I don't claim to know each and every instance why some get healed today and others don't, but it is ALL in God's hands whether there is or isn't healing. What I DO know is that if it is of God, there is no questions that it WAS God that must be thanked and praised. People that lift up Mary or "saints" as the one who did the healing are out and out wrong and misguided. They have no such power regardless of what those who worship (venerate) them say. ALL comes from Almighty God and, if Jesus said we can come to Him directly for all our needs, I don't need to take a detour to get to there. He alone deserves all glory and honor and praise!

695 posted on 12/12/2012 9:12:40 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

Here is what your protestant Bible's say....

There is no protestant Bible - there is ONLY ONE TRUTH - JESUS/The WORD, God's Word. You start out wrong, you end up wrong like this - the catechism, the koran, the book of mormons.

696 posted on 12/12/2012 9:15:31 PM PST by presently no screen name

To: presently no screen name

697 posted on 12/12/2012 9:16:10 PM PST by narses

To: presently no screen name

698 posted on 12/12/2012 9:19:12 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

To: Salvation; presently no screen name

Even Luther gave Catholic credit for the Bible. Are you saying he didn't?

I wonder why the actual reference for this quote is never given? For those who would like to understand what Luther really said and why, I give you:

“Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must—that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them? Therefore faith, the Christian Church, Christ, and the Holy Spirit must also be found among them. What business have I, then, to preach against them as a pupil preaching against his teachers? Then there come rushing into my heart thoughts like these: “Now I see that I am in error. Oh, if only I had never started this and had never preached a word! For who dares oppose the church, of which we confess in the Creed: I believe in a holy Christian Church, etc.? Now I find this church in the papacy too. It follows, therefore, that if I condemn this church, I am excommunicated, rejected, and damned by God and all the saints.” [LW 24:304].

Is Luther conceding an infallible church gave us the canon? Absolutely not. Is Luther saying an infallible extra-biblical tradition produced the Canon? Absolutely Not. Luther is simply saying that he learned about the Scriptures, Baptism, and the Pulpit, etc. from the Church of his day, in the same way the Prophets were born into a society in which the religious structure of their day was functioning, and gave the Old Testament people a religious context to live in. The visible church indeed promulgated the Scriptures and Christian doctrine. Who can deny this? But simply because they did so, does not mean the visible church in Rome infallibly declared the canon of Scripture.

Luther held that the Church was God's hand maid and servant. It does not create God's Word, God's Word creates the Church. As the servant of the Word, it gives the Word to the body of Christ, His people. Indeed, who would know God's Word if it were not for the Church continually upholding it and pointing God's people to it in each generation? One should be able to sense the thrust of Luther's argument: when the visible Church goes bad, going against it is an awesome and fearful undertaking. The Church is God's handmaid. It is to protect and promulgate the Word- but what happens when the servant disobeys the Master? Who can condemn the handmaid and not be fearful?

The quote as cited by Roman Catholics has nothing to do with an infallible Church declaring the contents of Scripture. The quote isn't discussing canonicity. The quote isn't discussing if Rome gave us an infallible list of biblical books. Rather, the quote is part of an argument based on Old Testament Israel persecuting God’s true people, and the Roman Catholic Church persecuting the Reformers. This is made clear as Luther continues. Old Testament Judaism had God's law. does this mean they were the ones who infallibly declared what that law was?

“But what is now our defense? And what is the ground on which we can hold our own against such offense and continue to defy those people? It is nothing else than the masterly statement St. Paul employs in Rom. 9:7: “Not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants.” Not all who bear the name are Israelites; or, as the saying goes: “Not all who carry long knives are cooks.” Thus not all who lay claim to the title “church” are the church. There is often a great difference between the name and the reality. The name is general. All are called God’s people, children of Abraham, Christ’s disciples and members; but this does not mean that they all are what the name signifies. For the name “church” includes many scoundrels and rascals who refused to obey God’s Word and acted contrary to it. Yet they were called heirs and successors of the holy patriarchs, priests, and prophets. To be sure, they had God’s Law and promise, the temple, and the priesthood. In fact, they should have been God’s people; but they practiced idolatry so freely under the cloak of the name “church” that God was forced to say: “This shall no longer be My temple and priesthood. My people shall no longer be My people. But to those who are not My people it shall be said: ‘You are sons of the living God’ ” (Hos. 1:10; 2:23).” [LW 24:304].

Luther realizes that even within the corrupt papacy, the true church exists:

“Thus we are also compelled to say: “I believe and am sure that the Christian Church has remained even in the papacy. On the other hand, I know that most of the papists are not the Christian Church, even though they give everyone the impression that they are. Today our popes, cardinals, and bishops are not God’s apostles and bishops; they are the devil’s. And their people are not God’s people; they are the devil’s. And yet some of the papists are true Christians, even though they, too, have been led astray, as Christ foretold in Matt. 24:24. But by the grace of God and with His help they have been preserved in a wonderful manner.” [LW 24:305].

“In the meantime we adhere to the distinction made here by Christ and do not regard as Christendom those who do not hold truly and absolutely to what Christ taught, gave, and ordained, no matter how great, holy, and learned they may be. We tell them that they are the devil’s church. On the other hand, we want to acknowledge and honor as the true bride of Christ those who remain faithful to His pure Word and have no other comfort for their hearts than this Savior, whom they have received and confessed in Baptism and in whose name they have partaken of the Sacrament. These are the true church. It is not found in only one place, as, for example, under the pope; but it exists over the entire earth wherever Christians are found. Outwardly they may be scattered here and there, but they meet in the words of the Creed: “I believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was born, suffered, and died for us on the cross.” In like manner, they pray: “Our Father who art in heaven.” They share the same Spirit, Word, and Sacrament. They all lead the same holy and blessed life, each one according to his calling, whether father, mother, master, servant, etc. Thus whatever we preach, believe, and live, this they all preach, believe, and live. Physically separated and scattered here and there throughout the wide world, we are nevertheless gathered and united in Christ.”[LW 24:309].

From these paragraphs, it should be obvious what Luther is driving at. It is the job of the True Church- those who believe and trust only in Christ's righteousness by faith, to call the visible church to repentance. The visible church will claim to be God speaking. The visible church may claim to be that authority which determined the Canon. But if the visible church is in rebellion against God, it is the task of the true Christian to point her back to her master. (http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search?q=We+are+compelled+to+concede+to+the+Papists)

699 posted on 12/12/2012 9:38:03 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

What part is so hard to understand? IT’S IS ALL ABOUT JESUS/THE WORD and not man.

Don’t post to me what man says to suite your agenda, if you want credibility. You wasted a lot of bandwidth for nothing - shame, shame!

There is ONLY ONE TRUTH, JESUS/THE WORD!

700 posted on 12/12/2012 9:38:18 PM PST by presently no screen name

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