Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
Well, like as i said, it is good that Rome has annalex to interpret Rome for those Catholics and Protestants who might understand modern RC official statements and papal teaching that properly baptized Prots are "incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church,"
but nevertheless they are "joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power," "even to the shedding of blood [which] has become a common inheritance of Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Protestants,"
with saints coming from the faithful "of all Churches and Ecclesial Communities which gave them entrance into the communion of salvation" (thus you could pray to Prot saints!) even though they "do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."
And which is one of the things you must require them to repent from to be part of the body and be saved.
Not that i do not understand why you hold to SSPX ecclesiology, as that is indeed more consistent with historical teaching (but so would sanction of torture, and some other things, and thus some Roman "reformulation" of her reformulation (meaning redefining) of the past is necessary to avoid the charge that Rome altered in any way the ecclesiology of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", which modernism you find un-Catholic. And i agree, but at some point it often necessary to find out what kind of Catholicism is being defended.
It is impossibly to convert by force and I never suggested otherwise.
It is denied that this is what the use of torture was for, but Roman teaching states that "as a perfect and independent society provided with all the means for attaining its end," (as i think you say, a law unto itself, "It has, therefore, the right to admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction." — Catholic Encyclopedia Jurisdiction http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm
And i recalled something in the past on this subject of men martyred under Rome (though you consider them heretics), in which you expressed that you did not know if they were saved at the last, but that "our best effort [which included coercive punishment] was to ensure their salvation. If they were, they were Catholic when they died." And as your rejection of torture now is due to the more modern rejection of it yet popes and weighty men advocated it in the past, then do you not sanction her use of it then?
The fixation on the Inquisition is a reflexive defense Protestants have as they cannot justify their beliefs by the scripture, but want to cling on to them
Rather, it is because we must our beliefs by the scripture, the more fundamental having the most warrant, that we oppose this. Yet early Prots did likewise, as reformation is not the work of one day or two, and there is much to unlearn from Rome and worldly ways which we too easily adopt to achieve our means.
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Annalex, you need to check out your Bible more. Your teachings are far from the saving Grace of Jesus christ. He is no longer on the cross. He is risen!
It's now confirmed I did.
I witness the result of 'when truth grates'. Just another handout of Rome to their kindergartener subjects when they are stumped.
All you “confirmed” is that without the Spirit you cannot understand the very Scriptures you post.
Just... wow....
That's right. We can come back to the enemy with, *I am not damned, you are. I know salvation. You can NEVER know salvation and you cannot rob me of it either.*
Read the rest of the post.
What is it with Luther that pushes Catholics over the edge like the mere though of him does? Why go into rabid frothing, tirades about stuff that is taken out of context that he allegedly said?
Galatians 3:1- O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:28-29 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
John 11:25-26 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
LOL!!!
NOBODY can out legalistic the RCC.
The RCC is the one who tries to complicate the gospel by adding works and sacraments, and all kinds of other requirements to being saved that God never taught us.
Revelation 12:10 - Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Where is Luther’s doctrine of the Bible ALONE as the SOLE rule of faith, in the Bible?
The Bible confirms what the Church teaches us regarding earthly authority.
“If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” —Jesus
That, my friend, is Pelagism. Reread your prayer again with your definition inserted:
It's also worthy of note that such, “Self Alone” Scripture interpreters claim that Satan tries to get them to doubt their salvation.
According to Scripture Satan was a liar from the beginning and his first lie was, “surely you shall not die”. Clearly it's Satan that constantly provides those who are lost with false assurance of their salvation, not with reasons to doubt their salvation.
It's obvious, and quite sad, that those who worship their Self Alone by placing themselves above all Scripture cannot see the Truth because they listen to a convenient spirit rather than to the Holy Ghost and follow Eve rather than Jesus Christ.
O don’t know. I don’t study Luther. I study scripture. What ever made you think I would know what Luther taught? You must mistake me for a Catholic, a Mormon, a Muslim or some other cult that follows the teachings of men.
>>The Bible confirms what the Church teaches us regarding earthly authority.<<
I don’t know who’s Bible teaches that. Paul certainly didn’t. He didn’t even think he or any other apostle or teacher of the time should be fully trusted but that we should “search the scriptures daily” to see if what they teach is true.
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
That alone tells me that the Holy Spirit through Paul, who after all was inspired by God to write, commended those in Berea and thus us also to use scripture to judge the voracity of all those who propose to teach or lead. If you don’t choose to do that I certainly am not in a position to demand that you do. Be assured however that I will always “search the scriptures daily” and thus reduce error of following man instead of God.
>> If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church<<
Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church [ekklēsia]; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Ekklesia – [an assembly] a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating the assembly of the Israelites any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven. [http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=assembly&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK&ps=10&s=References]
I understand that the RCC has usurped the meaning and intent of that word to use for their own purposes but it definitely does not mean what I perceive you were trying to imply it means. I for one haven’t fallen for the erro of the RCC.
Besides Reformers affirming that the faith that saves must be the kind that effects obedience, you must not know it, but Catholics also added that "allein", "alone" to Rm. 3:28, as this consistent with the contrast that Paul is making, that of faith appropriating justification (which again, RC baptism by desire with perfect contrition allows for) - albeit the aforementioned living faith - versus works of righteousness, whether by Jews or Gentiles, (Titus 3:5) whether under the law or before it, Abraham being the example of the later.
For " to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the unGodly [not the Godly], his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, .."(Romans 4:5-6)
The unGodly being justified by faith "without works" is the same as saying justified by faith alone, even if you restrict it to works done under the law or by impure motive, and conveys the sense of the text, which translators do. However, that is not the best practice, and it was not kept, and word for word translations are better than paraphrased or "dynamic equivalence."
Luther comments, “I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text — the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these blockheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text -- if the translation is to be clear and vigorous [klar und gewaltiglich], it belongs there."
But again, the reformed teaching (contrary to the RC straw man) is that faith itself is what precisely appropriates justification, being counted for righteousness as per Rm. 4, "but not by a faith that is alone,” Westminster states faith "is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love." [Westminster Confession of Faith, CHAPTER XI. Of Justification. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm]
(Not that you and i have not debated this extensively before.)
The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”
At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.
Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3): See http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html for more of the above.
As for Luther being forced to remove it, contrary to the straw man of RCAs in which Luther is treated as a pope and whose statements are all held as infallible, he never ceased to amend his translations, while evidence for the forced to change allegation apparently is wanting.
Moreover, if you want to fault Luther based on a translators preference and call that a lie, then you need to convert your own church due it is flagrant mishandling of the Scriptures in its own official American Bible.
In addition, not did Luther have Catholic concurrence in his translation, and Protestantism is not based upon a lie, but Rome made good use of real fabrications to say what Scripture does not, except by ecclesiastical eisegesis based upon the premise of Rome self declared infallibility.
“That, my friend, is Pelagism. “
No it’s not , you obviously did not read that I mentioned the Law of Love already written in our hearts from God, so it is not us who makes the initial response. I also said God consistently pines for us to unite with Him
LOL Nice try. Satan is called the accuser. So you’re trying to switch to mean that he accuses us that we have salvation? That makes sense to you? I think not.
Revelation 12:10 - Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Satan was accusing us of assurance of salvation? LOL
Or do you believe the apostles (being inspired by the Holy Spirit by the way) were the accusers?
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Romans 8:38-39 say, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Nothing can separate a child of God from their Father.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
2 Corinthians 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
If you don’t believe that maybe there is a reason.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jude 1:24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Which is it? You seem to suggest that Satan was accusing us of assurance of salvation. Be careful. Twisting scripture to try to make it mean what you want it to mean can get you all tied up in knots.
So when Jesus says this, who's HE working for?
John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Oh He does more than just pine for us.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day
The word used there for draw is Helkuo. It’s also the word used that is translated “dragged” here.
Acts 16:19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.
Interesting isn’t it? But Catholics would like us to believe that He just “pines” for us and that it is we who make the move. Catholic deception one more time. I would even dare say that Catholics have heard the erroneous statement from the RCC that “God desires to draw you unto Him”. Notice that little satanic “desires” inserted there?
To: Rashputin
Please don’t ping me again. I will return the favor.
1,891 posted on Friday, December 21, 2012 12:38:42 by CynicalBear
As is always the case, the Self Alone crowd say whatever is convienent at the moment and change it to suit themeselves later.
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