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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; metmom; boatbums; presently no screen name; daniel1212
>> Where is Luther’s doctrine of the Bible ALONE as the SOLE rule of faith, in the Bible?<<

O don’t know. I don’t study Luther. I study scripture. What ever made you think I would know what Luther taught? You must mistake me for a Catholic, a Mormon, a Muslim or some other cult that follows the teachings of men.

>>The Bible confirms what the Church teaches us regarding earthly authority.<<

I don’t know who’s Bible teaches that. Paul certainly didn’t. He didn’t even think he or any other apostle or teacher of the time should be fully trusted but that we should “search the scriptures daily” to see if what they teach is true.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

That alone tells me that the Holy Spirit through Paul, who after all was inspired by God to write, commended those in Berea and thus us also to use scripture to judge the voracity of all those who propose to teach or lead. If you don’t choose to do that I certainly am not in a position to demand that you do. Be assured however that I will always “search the scriptures daily” and thus reduce error of following man instead of God.

>> If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church<<

Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church [ekklēsia]; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Ekklesia – [an assembly] a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating the assembly of the Israelites any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven. [http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=assembly&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK&ps=10&s=References]

I understand that the RCC has usurped the meaning and intent of that word to use for their own purposes but it definitely does not mean what I perceive you were trying to imply it means. I for one haven’t fallen for the erro of the RCC.

4,113 posted on 01/03/2013 11:32:24 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
That alone tells me that the Holy Spirit through Paul, who after all was inspired by God to write, commended those in Berea and thus us also to use scripture to judge the veracity of all those who propose to teach or lead.

If you don’t choose to do that I certainly am not in a position to demand that you do. Be assured however that I will always “search the scriptures daily” and thus reduce error of following man instead of God.

That's an excellent practice. But didn't Paul also tell us to hold fast to the teachings passed down either by letter (Written Tradition) or word of mouth (Oral Tradition)?

Paul equates the authority of both oral (Oral Tradition) and written teachings (Written Tradition) passed down by the Apostles

And what of the teaching authority of Christ's Church?

Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church [ekklēsia]; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Ekklesia – [an assembly] a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating the assembly of the Israelites any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven. [http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=assembly&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK&ps=10&s=References]

If you assume that "any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting a company of Christian" represesnts the "church" that Christ refers to, then His words would be void and meaningless. I'm sure you believe that Jesus would never issue an empty or void command.

Consider Christ's words again.

"and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

What follows by logical necessity from Jesus' words; i.e., what must be true about this statement so that it is not empty, meaningless, or void?

Jesus' Church must be visible and identifiable, not a loose collection of believers. Why? Because in order for us to "tell it to the church," there must exist a Church, identifiable to both Christians in disagreement, to take their dispute to.

Would Jesus command two Christians in disagreement to take their dispute to "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting." Which assembly?

Clearly, this Church must be unified, because Jesus tells us to take our disputes to "the" church, not "a" church.

Finally, this Church must be the the ultimate earthly arbiter of Christian doctrine, since a visible Church, vested by Christ with the authority to arbitrate disputes among Christians, must also have the authority to arbitrate disputes within the Church itself.

All of this follows necessarily from Christ's simple command. Otherwise, His command would be empty, which is an impossibility, due to His divine Nature.

4,133 posted on 01/03/2013 12:49:44 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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