Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.

This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.

The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.

By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.

Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.

The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.

This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.

Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.

Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”

Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.

If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.

Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.

>> They are not a mechanical result,<<

No one said they were “mechanical”. If a person doesn’t understand the transformation that occurs when one is born again they can’t possibly understand where the change comes from. Trying to “take credit” for actions through some sort of “free will” rather than give credit to God for transforming us into “a new creation” is totally carnal thinking.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The attitude that seems to be prevalent of “I have to do my part” is against all things that are taught in scripture. It’s tantamount to taking credit for what God did.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

>> If you choose to do these works,<<

There’s that sanctimonious “you choose” again. As if we in our fallen state can “choose” to obey God. Notice the use of the word “of” in the following verses.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

It’s now “our” faith that we rely on. It is the faith of Christ which is in us. To think otherwise is folly.

>> and 5:29 (which you seem unaware of)<<

Oh I am quite aware. Those who have done evil would include those who have taken credit away from God for what He has done in us by claiming it was they who could “choose” to do good contrary to what scripture teaches.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Take credit for yourself if you choose but I will give credit and glory to God who works through me. “It is not I who lives but Christ lives in me”.

If you don't understand this you don't understand the scripture.

>>The Catholics STILL have not addressed just who these people are that are going to be Raised!<<

LOL Maybe we can do it by the process of elimination! It can’t be those who the RCC has designated as saints by their infallibility because they are already in heaven and apparently in their glorified bodies. It can’t be those who have been prayed, bought, or ransomed out of purgatory because they are also in heaven. It can’t be the ones who are alive still because they haven’t gone through either process and aren’t dead yet. As nearly as I can figure out it’s the ones who someone didn’t pay enough for to get out of purgatory and those who were not going to get there anyway. At least that’s per my understanding of what Catholics have said.

So there ya go!

“I have talked to many Catholics as well as other people,(Christian and non Christian), and only from a Catholic did I get the answer “No I am a Catholic” when I asked her if she was a Christian.”

She is a Catholic, it goes without saying that she is a Christian. After all the first Christians were Catholic.

Unfortunately in these days when asked if they are Christians many Catholics are badgered about the ‘sinners prayer’ or the ‘have you been saved and asked Jesus to be your personal lord and savior’ questions.?

Of course we Catholics have been saved, after all we have been baptized.

We have a 2000 year history and even Luther would not have thought that Catholics are not Christian.

She is a Catholic, it goes without saying that she is a Christian. After all the first Christians were Catholic.

So, Teddy Kennedy is a Christian? Pelosi? Schumer? Mafia families? Priests who molest and rape children are Christians? Really?

I was baptized Catholic and have been told that once a Catholic, always a Catholic, therefore by your statement, I am Christian.

Of course we Catholics have been saved, after all we have been baptized.

Since I am a baptized Catholic, then I am saved. Then why does it push Catholics over the edge when *I* tell them that and state the same?

We have a 2000 year history and even Luther would not have thought that Catholics are not Christian.

You know what Luther would think on an issue? How do you do that? Did you ask him?

She is a Catholic, it goes without saying that she is a Christian. After all the first Christians were Catholic.

So, Teddy Kennedy is a Christian? Pelosi? Schumer? Mafia families? Priests who molest and rape children are Christians? Really?

I was baptized Catholic and have been told that once a Catholic, always a Catholic, therefore by your statement, I am Christian.

Of course we Catholics have been saved, after all we have been baptized.

Since I am a baptized Catholic, then I am saved. Then why does it push Catholics over the edge when *I* tell them that and state the same?

We have a 2000 year history and even Luther would not have thought that Catholics are not Christian.

You know what Luther would think on an issue? How do you do that? Did you ask him?

STF-Possibly, because I'm not worthy enough to presume I could fall and freely make a mistake to lose eternal love.

I should have expressed this better and said if I ever fall and reject God's love, the effect of that love will not be the same way on me as if I make it to heaven

You cannot lose God's love. God IS love. For Him to not love would be for Him to deny His own character, the essence of who He IS

Very good,Met. This is sound Catholic theology that you maintained from when you were Catholic.Many of protestant theology falls apart when we explain God's unchanging eternal love.

St. Isaac of Syria captures how God's unchanging love actually works....

Those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God… But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (St. Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises)

Catholicism has way too lopsided a view of God, way too heavy on the OT, old covenant God of judgment and not enough on the NT, new covenant God of mercy and grace and love.

Dear sister, that is one of the silliest things I have ever seen you write

If anything, Catholic's are accused of not maintaining enough of the OT .We see everything through the fulfillment of Christ through typology and know "the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New"

From the Catechism.

The unity of the Old and New Testaments

128 The Church, as early as apostolic times, [Cf. i Cor 10:6, 11; Heb 10:l; l Pt 3:21] and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God's works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son. [1094, 489]

129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself. [Cf. Mk 12:29-31] Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament. [Cf. I Cor 5:6-8; 10:1-11] As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New. [Cf. St. Augustine, Quaest. in Hept. 2, 73: PL 34,623; Cf. DU 16] [681, 2055, 1968]

130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfilment of the divine plan when "God [will] be everything to everyone." [1 Cor 15:28] Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God's plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.

“”Maybe you need to publish a novena that’s never been known to fail... “”

How about a Devotional Chaplet?

Here is one I pray everyday and it works great.(it’s very powerful). Give it a try!

The Chaplet of St. Michael

O God, come to my assistance. O Lord, make haste to help me. Glory be to the Father, etc.

[Say one Our Father and three Hail Marys after each of the following nine salutations in honor of the nine Choirs of Angels]

1. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Seraphim may the Lord make us worthy to burn with the fire of perfect charity.
Amen.

2. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Cherubim may the Lord grant us the grace to leave the ways of sin and run in the paths of Christian perfection.
Amen.

3. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Thrones may the Lord infuse into our hearts a true and sincere spirit of humility.
Amen.

4. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Dominations may the Lord give us grace to govern our senses and overcome any unruly passions.
Amen.

5. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Virtues may the Lord preserve us from evil and falling into temptation. Amen.

6. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Powers may the Lord protect our souls against the snares and temptations of the devil.
Amen.

7. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Principalities may God fill our souls with a true spirit of obedience. Amen.

8. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Archangels may the Lord give us perseverance in faith and in all good works in order that we may attain the glory of Heaven.
Amen.

9. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Angels may the Lord grant us to be protected by them in this mortal life and conducted in the life to come to Heaven.
Amen.

Say one Our Father in honor of each of the following leading Angels: St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael and our Guardian Angel.

Concluding prayers:

O glorious prince St. Michael, chief and commander of the heavenly hosts, guardian of souls, vanquisher of rebel spirits, servant in the house of the Divine King and our admirable conductor, you who shine with excellence and superhuman virtue deliver us from all evil, who turn to you with confidence and enable us by your gracious protection to serve God more and more faithfully every day.

Pray for us, O glorious St. Michael, Prince of the Church of Jesus Christ, that we may be made worthy of His promises.

Almighty and Everlasting God, Who, by a prodigy of goodness and a merciful desire for the salvation of all men, has appointed the most glorious Archangel St. Michael Prince of Your Church, make us worthy, we ask You, to be delivered from all our enemies, that none of them may harass us at the hour of death, but that we may be conducted by him into Your Presence.This we ask through the merits of
Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Amen.

Very good,Met. This is sound Catholic theology that you maintained from when you were Catholic.Many of protestant theology falls apart when we explain God's unchanging eternal love.

I believe it because it's true, not because it's Catholic theology.

There are areas where Catholic theology and non-Catholic theology overlap but it doesn't mean that the Catholic church owns it.

Many of protestant theology falls apart when we explain God's unchanging eternal love.

Like what? Who? I NEVER heard of that about any non-Catholic theology. They believe that because it's in the Bible, not because the Catholic church teaches it. It just happens to be one of the areas where the overlap exists.

Dear sister, that is one of the silliest things I have ever seen you write

I'm not talking about typology. I'm talking about something as basic as a person's image of God.

Catholic teaching, by everything I have gleaned here and remember from my growing up years, teaches that if we sin, we go to hell, or at least purgatory. It teaches that God demands perfection from us and penalizes us if we don't reach it. It's a lopsided image of God that is heavy on the judgment, not allowing for human weaknesses.

Oh, but that is not true, a Catholic would say, because God has provided for confession to a priest and penance.

But it is true because the person's relationship with God depends on jumping through the hoops and performance instead of forgiveness and mercy freely given by God in spite of our sin.

Once we repent and confess, we ARE saved. We become God's children and He does not cast His own out. Sin breaks down the lines of communication, the fellowship, but does not destroy the relationship and does not cost us our salvation, nor does it require *paying* for our sins through suffering in purgatory, because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. Suffering contributes NOTHING to getting forgiveness. It does not and CANNOT pay for sin. That is a completely unscriptural concept.

I would suggest that if you believe the Lord has saved you, then you examine how completely you trust the Lord to keep you, even against your own follies.

I don't know the Lord has saved me since I am not sitting in heaven, and those follies(I think you mean sin) can blind people when they disregard them as a problem which CAN lead to a snowball effect when the human mind tells itself it can keep sinning because God will keep forgiving the same sins over and over. This is like playing God for a fool because there is never a contrite confession or a will to stop the same continual sins we are aware of.

From the Catechism...

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

“”There are areas where Catholic theology and non-Catholic theology overlap but it doesn’t mean that the Catholic church owns it. “”

The Holy Spirit guides the Church and if you read Church history of the amount of heretics that the Church has had to deal with who misinterpret Scripture through the ages,you might be thankful for Catholic teaching

“”Like what? Who?””

Calvinism

“”I have gleaned here and remember from my growing up years, teaches that if we sin, we go to hell””

You know that Church teaching does not say this.

You might get a kick out of this old Greek Orthodox women though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rinm3h1Ibcc

I don't know the Lord has saved me since I am not sitting in heaven

This was part of your prayer...

Work in me to cleanse me from all ground that would give satan a foothold against me. I do in every way stand into all that it means to be Your adopted child and I welcome all the ministry of the Holy Spirit. By faith and in dependence upon You, I put off the fleshly works of the old man and stand into all the victory of the crucifixion where the Lord Jesus Christ provided cleansing from the old nature. I put on the new man and stand into all the victory of the resurrection and the provision He has made for me to live above sin.

What do you mean that you don't know if the Lord has saved you if you truly believe you're His adopted child? When I think of adoption I think of someone being joined to a household under the care and rule of the head of that household. Do you believe Christ will kick you out from your adoption? Or do you just don't believe the prayer that you posted?

A clarification of what it means to be adopted into God's family would be helpful.

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