Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
All born again Christians are saints.
>> Do you believe they went to hell?<<
Jesus Himself said they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
>> another person you may be familiar with is Mother Theresa, do you think she went to hell.<<
Don’t know her heart and Jesus never told us she was “filled” so don’t know.
>> There are amazing Catholics that gave up everything, and gladly suffered, to serve God<<
There ya go again. Works got them into heaven ey?
>> who to us undoubtedly are in heaven,<<
So you determined that because of their works?
>> and continue to battle the Father of Deception for our souls.<<
I do believe that task was given to the angels.
When you cut and past like that you actually still have to do some formatting to make it readable.
That is interesting, thanks for sharing. I humbly hope to be saved by enduring any sufferring that comes in my life, sacrificing anything and everything for others (my family), by humility, keeping my covenant with God (marriage), no matter what. These are all things that our God given sacraments help me to stay strong, and most importantly through the Grace of my amazing God, whom with all those things are possible.
But salvation is not determined by works. No sireee it ain’t.
You’ve got duplicate verses in there, again looking as if there were more Scripture supposedly supporting your position that there really is.
So, why do Catholics get in such a snit over being told they are not saved if they aren’t even sure of it themselves? They keep telling us no one can be sure until they die and stand before God and find out. And that when someone states that he is sure of his salvation, it pushes them right over the edge.
That by default means that they believe that everyone is lost. It has to because the other option is that everyone is saved until they die and stand before God and find out they’re not.
Aren’t we just reiterating what they already believe?
Besides, nobody’s opinion about who is saved or not matters one iota in God’s judgment of them. Our opinion does NOT affect the outcome of anohter’s salvation. It’s not like WE’RE sending anyone to hell.
Interestingly, Catholic don’t seem to have any problem telling me I’M not saved unless I cross the Tiber. Why should they object when the shoe is on the other foot?
For that matter, IIRC, you decided that I did not belong to God. Can’t I return the favor and make a judgment about you?
Before anyone is canonized, their lives are investigated for years. Miracles are a common theme in saints lives. It is appropriate to judge your own house, judge yourself, that is much more accurate than judging people you know nothing about. We all judge, but it should certainly be avoided. For example, those religions who seem to define themselves on judgement of others, are not kosher to me personally. I leave that final decision up to God before I feel the need to start bad mouthing a general subject. If someone personally offends me, sins against me, I have aGod given right to accuse. Still there is no better justice than that of God.
Wait. What?
That seems like looking through the wrong end of the telescope. A man made syncretic religion gets to decide who
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
YHvH has chosen from before the foundations of the universe ?????
Because no man, has the right to tell another man, that he is saved or not. That is something that only God can determine. Even the most ignorant Catholic, will be repulsed by someone assuming God like qualities unto themselves. Even our Pope's are humble, yet unwilling to accomodate modern psuedo religions/trends, and but willimmediately forgive their would-be-assasin.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/story.php?id=41174 That is God's love.
With those examples, Jehovah's Witnesses knock on doors all day long, and all one can think what good have they done in the world? What are their fruits?
Well, that would be making a judgment, now wouldn't it?
No you don't.
You have a God given mandate to love and forgive.
Matthew 5:21-16 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Matthew 5:38-42 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Matthew 5:43-48 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
There is only one accuser and that is Satan.
Revelation 12:9-10 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
If you are accusing others before God, you are not doing the work of God.
Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ...
Tell me, what church do you go to?
You noticed that, too, eh?
Seems to be a prevalent attitude among Catholics. I encountered it a lot from those I worked with.
And Catholics tell us they don’t judge others?
OK.
Now, tell us. Did Jesus contradict Himself between Matthew 5 and Matthew 18 and just how do you reconcile those passages?
Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ...
The book of Revelation reveals the justice of God in all its glory during the end times. When the saints watch the destruction of the earth, their song will be of God’s righteous judgment upon the inhabitants for their ultimate sin of rejecting Him (Revelation 11:16-18; 15:3-4; 16:7; 19:1-4). And as 2 Peter 3:13 says, we are promised that someday, when Christ physically reigns on earth, God’s righteous justice will finally be on full display.
If someone spreads calumny and slanders my faith in God, that is a direct sin against me. It has been escalated.
I’ll bet it isn’t a church that thinks it can bind and loose people’s souls by making pronouncements here on earth.
It’s time we get off this Catholic Protestant meme and see what scripture says. I couldn’t care less which “religion” someone claims to be or what supposed “church group” they belong to. Either they follow what scripture says and put their full faith in Christ alone or they don’t.
Get this straight. I’m not a Protestant, Catholic, or any other moniker people like to attach to either themselves or others.
Let it be known that I am born again follower of Christ. A member of His universal world wide church called “The Bride of Christ”.
1 Peter 2: 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Then what's with the binding and loosing?
Why quote that Matthew 18 passage?
How can someone claim to not be in a position to judge others and then turn around and claim that they have the power to bind of loose someone else's soul?
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