Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
Then it would be the mother of Jesus, wouldn't it?
Then they would pray to God and not Mary.
Then the pope wouldn't have said 'I'm all yours, Mary'.
Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men".
Yup; and we are ALL pawns on BOTH sides of this game!
Have ya considered my man boatbums?
I presume that you are correct...
Many people do not admit to self abuse...
John 19:27
I like the squeezing water from a coin trick the best!
It really baffles the little Sunday School kids!
Amen! Mary, the mother of John, also.
Maybe it was, but it still meaningless.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
There is no indication in Scripture at all that any of them thought any more of her than that she was *mother of Jesus*.
Did God really say?
When quoting another website, article, book, etc. be sure to include adequate source information, e.g. url, link, title, author, date, publisher, etc.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Words such as "false" "wrong" "error" do not attribute motive.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.
Thanks. Thus you are saying pasted material in a post is to be sourced much as posting an article, although all may be not be available such as the date.
This is what Jesus has to say about those saints who have experienced a physical death:
MT 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 "Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
MT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (St. Luke's Gospel 20:38 adds "for to him all are alive" or "for all live unto him")
Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people? Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive ("for to him all [in heaven] are alive") ! Let us further examine the words of Jesus on the matter:
JN 11:17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
JN 11:21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
JN 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
JN 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Catholics believe this. A saint is simply someone who was saved and is now in heaven, we believe there is a spiritual battle of good and evil, and those in even are helping to save souls.
ALL of the early churches believe this.
yes, Jesus gave His beloved disciples His Blessed Mother full of grace. That is why we honor her, as our spiritual mother.
This is what the bible says about "dead people".
MT 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. MT 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." MT 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" Jesus himself spoke with both Moses and Elijah even though Moses was dead and buried for over a thousand years and Elijah was taken up into heaven (for you "Left Behind" fans: he was "raptured") nearly a thousand years before Jesus was born. Jesus is our very example of Christian living and here we have Jesus talking with a so-called “dead saint” while we read in the Scriptures: 1JN 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Therefore, if Jesus spoke with departed Saints and the Bible commands us to walk as Jesus did there is no reason why we can’t speak with Saints who have overcome the world and have been perfected and glorified. So how is it that Catholics are violating some divine precept supposedly forbidden by Scripture? How is it that Catholics are disobeying the teachings of Jesus and the Scriptures when Jesus himself set the example? Some might argue and say, “Hey Dave, Jesus was God and can speak to anyone he wants.” Never in the Scriptures do we see Jesus breaking any Commandment. Jesus was not free to violate any of the commandments because if he did his sacrifice at Calvary would have been nullified by sin.
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!
You forgot to point out that the Father intervened and didn’t allow the apostles to “venerate” Moses and Elijah or even talk to them. He immediately, “While he was still speaking” redirected their focus onto Jesus.
MT 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
Using that passage to try to convince that talking to those who have passed from this life is ill advised. God intervened and gave specific directions on who to focus on and it wasn’t Moses, Elijah, or any other departed saint. I have posted this to you before. Why you choose to disregard what God said is beyond me.
Where exactly did God or Jesus say the apostles couldn’t talk to or honor Elijah or Moses? That would definitly be scripture I haven’t read before. Thanks!
Yes, it is different because they are not on this plane of physical existence and trying to contact those not here on earth through other means is considered necromancy and spiritism by Scripture.
The questions still do remain though.
One is that if we can ask friends and family here on earth to pray for us, why go to those whose physical bodies have died?
If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are interceding for us according to the will of God, why go to humans or angels?
Since God has promised us in so many places in Scripture that He hears and answers our prayers, why go to anyone else?
Since we are commanded to go to Him with our requests, why disobey and go to someone else?
Since we are not commanded anywhere in Scripture to pray to anyone else but God, why presume that that it's alright or even effective?
Where in Scripture does it say that those departed souls who are in heaven have the ability or power to hear or answer those prayers?
Time spend praying to saints and angels is time not spend praying to God.
I don't spend time building a relationship with boatbums by talking to Cynical Bear about her. I build it by talking TO HER.
I don't try to get a favor from her by getting CB to coerce her into doing it for me. I ask her myself.
"Listen to Him", is not at all what you are saying. "Listen to Him", is also what Mary told the servants at the wedding of Cana. It simply means, "listen to Him". Sheesh, and they say Catholics change things.
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