Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
BTW I suppose it was alright to plagerize from the poster Gamera at http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2816786 without attribution?
Wasn't it you who told me the "steps" into the church were at the front of the church? Seems to me that if you enter the "front of the church" and face that alter in doing so that alter is in the "back of the church". Or do you turn back to the front of the church once again to face the alter? Or, does the front of the church become the back of the church once your inside?
This should be good....
When you, not Scripture, supremely define what is right and wrong and decree yourself infallible, then you need never allow that you can be wrong or accountable to anyone on earth. Yet the church began in dissent from such as presumed the like.
For the decision of their Scribes, or "Soferim" (Josephus, σοπισταί; N. T., γραμματεἴς), consisting originally of Aaronites, Levites, and common Israelites, they claimed the same authority as for the Biblical law, even in case of error (Sifre, Deut. 153-154); they endowed them with the power to abrogate the Law at times (see Abrogation of Laws), and they went so far as to say that he who transgressed their words deserved death (Ber. 4a). — www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees
"And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? " (Mark 11:27-28)
Even having legitimate authority does not equate to or necessitate assured infallibility or absolute supremacy which warrants unconditional obedience on earth, which only God is worthy of.
Catholics are children of Hagar? did the Holy Spirit tell you this, or somebody in your church?
I'm not the most biblically knowledgable, but I realzie I actually know more than I thought. The two women are Matriachs of many nations. (not Protestant and Christian), that didn't come until after God's inheritance was passed on through Jacob.
Hagar was Abrahams slave, she gave birth to a son named Ishmael, who did not recieve God's inheritance, but did father many nations. Muslims have a slave-master relationship with God. Once Sarah gave birth to Isaac,(the Jewish lineage-Jews treat God as the Father like we do, she wanted Hagar and Ishmael out, the bad relationship remains to this day.
That's a recipe for disaster.
The only one capable of handling that kind of unlimited power is Christ.
All other men can and will be corrupted by that kind of unbridled power and lack of accountability.
While the saying *Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely* isn't in Scripture, it is a truism. It has yet to be disproved among men.
Obviously you must believe he is not saved right?
After all, one cannot be saved unless a member of the Catholic Church.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra ( infallible statement from the chair of Peter): “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
About those accusations of twisting other's words......
I merely posted the Scripture. The conclusion you came to was your own.
I'm not the most biblically knowledgable, but I realzie I actually know more than I thought. The two women are Matriachs of many nations. (not Protestant and Christian), that didn't come until after God's inheritance was passed on through Jacob.
Paul says they represent the two covenants and that's the context in which he made those comments....vs 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants.
If you see Hagar as representing Catholicism, that is not my doing. Maybe you're seeing something you need to see.
The distinction of *Protestant* as opposed to *Christian* is an erroneous one. There are Christians in Protestant churches and there are Christians in the Catholic church and there are Christians in Evangelical churches and there are Christians in no churches.
And in all those denominations there are non-Christians.
Christian ≠ Catholic.
Christian ≠ Protestant.
Christian ≠ Evangelical.
Likewise...
Catholic ≠ Christian.
Protestant ≠ Christian.
Evangelical ≠ Christian.
Christian = Christian.
Denominations are simply denominations. They don't save and affiliation with one, baptism into one, membership in one, does not save anyone.
It's faith in the One who died for us that saves. A Person saves, not a religion.
Does that not then mean that, by default, you are judging their salvation?
HUH?
Didn't you read 'waiting'?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
WAITING...
Yes; we do.
I've done it a lot of times.
Who hates Catholics?
Do you have a NEED to feel hated?
No judgement, I simply do not recognize the God that I know.
O...
K...
I explained the word as I used it.
It’s not presumption to take God at His word
He never said that you salvation is complete at initial confession of faith, just the opposite:
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:21)
This is something we discussed already on this thread, so I refer you to my earlier posts.
At this point, unless there are specific questions, I believe I am done on this thread. It is getting repetitive and nasty. I will read, from now on, what you guys post, but I will only respond to reasonable questions. If I miss something important, write to me privately, and I will respond publicly to the indicated post.
The others have congregated here... ;^)
We get that already.
We Protestants know that Mary was chosen as the vessel in which our GOD became incarnate.
HE is our focus - not Mary.
She's dead; awaiting the trumpet.
I should have not referred to either “front” or “back”, but rather to “entrance” and “sanctuary”. I rarely argue over words, and only brought it up because you were making some hay out of a mere expression. You understand now that the place of the altar, or of the throne, is opposite to the entrance?
At least you are consist in your inability to understand.
What was 'attacked' was the non-biblical claim that Mary was FOREVER a virgin AND that she's alive somewhere helping you dudes out somehow!
So boring it rattled your chain.
Hee hee heee...
Sorry; but there are no RCC 'saints' here; just PRAYERS of saints.
If you have the NAMES of the 24 ELDERS or maybe perhaps the NAMES of the 4 living creatures; then we might be able to have an intelligent conversation.
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