Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
Ideas have consequenses
All scripture is God breathed from 2 Timothy 3
Scripture proceeds from God and we find it's meaning by asking in prayer for the Holy Spirit to open out hearts and minds to fully understand what God is showing us.
It would be better if Catholic teaching proceeded from the Word as it is God-breathed instead of the other way around.
Jesus Christ is the Word. The word is the Bible. The Bible is scripture. God-breathed, not "proceed(ing) from Catholic teaching."
That would make the Word (Jesus)[scripture], proceeding from Catholic teaching.
The Holy Spirit can bring the depth of understanding to this simple God-breathed salvation scripture:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...
I was simply responding to your own words. You said, "that man is 'saved by works, and not by faith alone'" is what James 2:24 states. If you do not believe that faith AND works are what saves you, then what exactly did you mean by saying that about the verse in James? If you are simply saying, "it is completely impossible to do anything meritorious whatever prior to being justified", and that we are justified initially by grace alone BUT we must do good works in order to STAY saved, then you should know that this contradicts clear Scripture. Also, logically thinking, if you have to do something to keep a gift, can it still be considered a gift? What, then, does grace really mean?
I am trying hard to explicitly respond to what you say and not be accused of twisting your words or lying about what you say.
I was raised as a Roman Catholic, so I do know what I am talking about. You say, "We believe that when you love God, "works" are an obvious symptom of that love..", and that is what I was also saying but I know full well that the Catholic Catechism as well as various statements of councils refute that and even go so far as to call those who make such a statement are "anathema". Here's one so you won't think I'm making it up, from http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM:
Canon 24.
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.
Canon 32.
If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.
Remember, we are talking about what SAVES a person, and by that, I mean makes one justified and made righteous before God. If it IS by grace, then it MUST take that grace all the way through until we die and go to heaven. If it is only a temporary grace or initial grace to get us started moving down the road to our own merit-based heavenly reward, then we are NOT talking about real grace anymore. In fact, that kind of grace is not the real Biblical grace at all, it is merely a jumper cable start that revives the dead battery but which requires the car to keep on going, doing what it can to get to the finish line using all it has on its own to get there. Jesus isn't the jumper cable, he isn't even the jumper battery, he is the whole thing bringing us to the finish line - all because of God's love, grace and mercy. How can we NOT respond to that kind of love? This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. (I John 4:10)
John 1:12-13 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of GodAll Baptized Catholics fit that description. Are we saved...?
Children, "baptized" at birth (a Catholic tradition), can not "believe in His name" until they reach the age of reason.
Then they can make that decision or go on without doing so.
Until they do so, they are not saved.
Infant baptism does not guarantee salvation.
(Nor does adult baptism. It's about a conscious and personal decision, baptism can come after conversion as is the norm [New Testament Baptism])
The following simple scripture guarantees salvation -Acts 16:31:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...
LOL! Tattling to the Moderator because you accuse me of reading someone ELSE’S mind now??? I can read Metmom’s comments just as anyone else can and reply to that. It’s no mystery.
That’s kinda funny you thinking we might be the same person, though. I’m sure her husband and mine would differ with you! :o)
That’s been my experience as well, though not all, thank God. Some actually have had their spiritual eyes opened and they get saved! It is a humbling and thrilling thing to be there when the Holy Spirit does what He does. I’m getting chills thinking about it.
I think what really fills Catholics' hearts with disgust towards "Protestants" is that a lot of us have no problem with rejoicing that we are saved by the grace of God and we KNOW we have eternal life.
Amen!
Amen to that.
My heart goes out to Catholics as they are mired down in so much dogmatic extra-Biblical doctrine that it is a sturggle for them to be in the arms of Jesus (as most non Catholics experience) on a daily basis.
We stayed in Lisbon and it is a beautiful city - full of history and sites. I got to go three times total and my husband went with me the last trip which was for three weeks. We got to go to Oporto (Porto) and also Aveiro which is on the Atlantic ocean and then ended up back in Lisbon for a weekend. Gorgeous! A must-see country!
I used to BE a Catholic, so I gravitate to threads that lean that way, just as some people discuss on Mormon threads. I know they don't hate Mormons because a lot of them WERE Mormons and they can relate because they know the lingo and the doctrines they have. I sincerely wish that those of us who come to these threads could make a concerted effort to change the tone and keep to the subject rather than get sidetracked. This thread started almost a MONTH ago and is nearing four thousand posts. But if you look at how it started, it was provocative from the first. It was baiting Protestants and daring them to come on and defend themselves against accusations that are untrue for most of us. What usually happens is what you see here, we have run the gamut of all the disagreements Protestants have with Catholics and then some. It's the same arguments repeating anytime we have a thread like this and it goes on this long.
It's usually the same people responding as on all threads of this type from both positions. Towards the end, again as usual, it gets nasty and insulting and the Moderator has to step in and remind adults of the rules they already know and shouldn't have to be reminded of. Tempers flare, feelings get hurt, enemies are made and seldom forgotten - ammunition is stored up for the next time and for what? I come on to talk about issues that have an eternal consequence - it is serious stuff and I can't pretend it's not.
I'm not perfect, I get irritated sometimes and say things I regret, but I truly pray that this new year we can all forgive each other's faults and missteps and resolve to always show respect and sincerity when we venture onto the Religion Forum. There's enough animosity out in the world, we don't need to come here to Free Republic and get clobbered, too. This place should be a refuge from the worldly and Godless system. That's one of my resolutions for 2013 - one I hope I keep. It can't be any harder than early to bed early to rise or losing weight, can it? :o)
Thank you for your encouragements. I hope you have a blessed new year!
Same here bb.Last night metmom posted lots of scripture (as metmom is prone to do)and it was a breath of fresh air to just read and let God's Word speak for itself.
It seems religion gets in the way all too often.
I'll wish you all here a good year 2013.I hope in the end we all don't care what sort of year we have but rather are so Spirit filled that we can and will handle any and everything that comes our way to the glory of God.
Grace and peace to all
Well; if you did NOT have all those extra-biblical things hanging around your necks like a fetid albatross; you'd not get mocked at all!
We don't mind your good works at ALL - just don't be claiming they are REQUIRED.
We don't mind all your wafer eating; just don't be claiming they turn into Christ's body.
We don't mind your worshipping venerating your saints at all; just don't be claiming that it actually does any good.
This seems a bit, shall we say, selective.
And He (Jesus) asked him (the man), "What is thy name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion: for we are many."
Yup; looks like Jesus wanted to know who was REALLY in control.
Oh so easily said; isn't it...
Protestants tend to not be so accepting of, shall we say, unproven claims.
I think you know why.
Just made JUDGEMENTS on these topics; BECAUSE it was ALL knowing and ALL powerful.
Oh?
Galatians 3:1
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
You foolish Catholics! Who has bewitched you? Can't you READ what the text SAYS???
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