Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.

This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.

The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.

By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.

Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.

The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.

This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.

Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.

Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”

Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.

If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.

Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.

"So either way you agree that Manning did make the statement"

In presenting the quote as you did you are as guilty of misleading the readers as was Webster. Honesty and fairness would dictate that you would present the full statement in context it was written. Cardinal Manning was not, as Webster and the many copy-cat websites propose, stating that antiquity was analogous to Scripture. He was asserting that in the timelessness of the Church there is no antiquity.

But don't take my word for it. Here is the statement in its broader context:

But that which is incorruptible is immutable, and the doctrines of the Church are the same to-day as in the beginning. All corruption is change, but not all change corruption: there is a change which destroys, and a change which perfects the identity of things. All growth is change. A forest tree in its majesty of spread and stature, has perfect identity with the acorn from which it sprung, but the change of ages which has passed upon it, perfects its identity by unfolding its stateliness and beauty.

But all decay is change. When the tree of the forest droops its branches, dies, and falls into the dust about its root, this change is corruption.

Now in this latter sense change is impossible in the doctrines of the Church, for God is not the God of the dead but of the living. His Church is the body of His Son, and has life in itself, and all its doctrines and sacraments are the expressions of the character of His life which quickens it.

Take the history of any doctrine in proof. Trace the dogma of the Holy Trinity from the Baptismal formula to the Baptismal creed, to the definitions of Nice and Constantinople, and to the precision of the creed of S. Athanasius. There is here growth, expansion, maturity, and therefore change, but absolute identity of truth. So again trace the doctrine of the Incarnation from the simple formula, 'the Word was made flesh' to the definitions against the Monophysites, the Monothelites, the Apollinarians, to the Cur Deus Homo of S. Anselm, and the treatises of Suarez; the intellectual conception and verbal expression have received a vast expansion, but the truth is identical, namely, God Incarnate, two perfect natures in one Divine person. Or once more, the doctrine of the Blessed Eucharist in all its aspects as a Sacrament, and as a Sacrifice, and as an object of adoration is no more than the words ' This is My body,' in the fulness of their intellectual conception. And lastly, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is no more than the last analysis in a long series of intellectual processes by which the belief of the whole Church from the beginning in the absolute sinlessness of the mother of God has found its ultimate expression. These four doctrines, as they are propounded now, are identical with the same four doctrines as they were propounded in the beginning. They have been unfolded into more explicit enunciation by a more precise intellectual conception and a more exact verbal expression, but they are the same in all their identity. Just as the gold from the mine is always the same though in the succession of times and dynasties it receive new images and superscriptions. So far, then, truth may grow but never change.

Such, however, is not the case with doctrines which are separated from the unity of the Church and the custody of the Divine Teacher who sustains the Faith. Trace the history of the Holy Trinity from Sabellius to Socinus, or of the Incarnation from Nestorius to Strauss, or of the Holy Eucharist from Luther to the present sacramentarian unbelief which overspreads England; or the article of the One Holy Catholic Church from the Reformation to this day in England alone, and in the Anglican Church only, in which no definition can be obtained whether the Church be visible or invisible, numerically one or only morally one, that is, divisible into many parts and yet called one, though it be a plurality of independent and conflicting bodies. This is change indeed, in which the identity of doctrine is lost. The oak has mouldered and fallen into its dust.

This then is what I mean by the immutability of doctrines. They are identical in number and in kind. Their disc and circumference are now as they were when they were first traced on the minds of the Apostles by the light of the Spirit of God. They have come down to us through all ages, and in the midst of all heresies, illuminating all intelligences and conforming them to the truth, but receiving no, tarnish or soil from the human intellect, just as the light of heaven pierces through the mists and pestilences of the world, and is in contact with all its corruptions and impurities without a shadow of stain or alteration.

The doctrines of the Church then are as unmixed as the light ; and undiminished in all the perfections of truth, which like Jesus ' is yesterday and to-day, and the same forever.'

4. And from this a fourth truth immediately follows, that the doctrines of the Church in all ages are primitive. It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine. How can we know what antiquity was except through the Church? No individual, no number of individuals can go back through eighteen hundred years to reach the doctrines of antiquity. We may say with the woman of Samaria, ‘Sir, the well is deep, and thou hast nothing to draw with.' No individual mind now has contact with the revelation of Pentecost, except through the Church. Historical evidence and biblical criticism are human after all, and amount at most to no more than opinion, probability, human judgment, human tradition.

It is not enough that the fountain of our faith be Divine, It is necessary that the channel be divinely constituted and preserved. But in the second chapter we have seen that the Church contains the fountain of faith in itself, and is not only the channel divinely created and sustained, but the very presence of the spring-head of the water of life, ever fresh and ever flowing in all ages of the world. I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves. The Church is always primitive and always modern at one and the same time; and alone can expound its own mind, as an individual can declare his own thoughts. 'For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God.' The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour.

Peace be with you

Christ is alive TODAY. You either believe that is literally true or not. For me, I can't possibly believe He is alive today if I haven't met Him personally, and that's exactly what the Church gives us: the opportunity to physically meet Jesus today

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

"But I tell you the truth: It is for YOUR GOOD that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you ALL things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:26

Rome is of the world as it teachings are of the 5 senses. What they can reason w/their minds and 'graven images' to see, and 'feel' religious. No different that the 'world' but they being in a church they 'feel religious' - so they assume it must be true! Faith (worldly) in a church with all the trappings of the world is not the TRUE FAITH OF GOD (supernatural).

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

The HOLY SPIRIT/The Spirit of God (who is not seen) is within every born again BELIEVER and teaches them God's Word as Jesus did while on earth. Exactly like Jesus taught - that's the WAY it will be when He leaves. He is The Way, The TRUTH, The Life.

Deny that at your own peril.

>>I asked you please not to make false statements regarding the beliefs of the Catholic church.<<

Does or does not the Catholic Church believe that the church has become the “new Israel”?

Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the "new Israel" (cf. CCC 877)

877 Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy." Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons. For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college. So also priests exercise their ministry from within the presbyterium of the diocese, under the direction of their bishop. [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/877.htm]

Just as the Old Testament is full of foreshadows of the New Testament (typology), Catholics believe the Bible is clear that the New Jerusalem of the Book of Revelation is not the historic city of Jerusalem. We do not believe that present day Israel is the same spiritual entity as the historic Israel before the time of Christ. After the crucifixion, the curtain of the Jewish sanctuary was torn in two (Mk 15:37-39, Lk 23:44-46, Mt 27:51) which was God tearing his cloths. At that point, a transfer of authority happened and we believe that the fledgling Church became the New Israel. [http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/why_did_the_catholic_church_move_to_rome_from_jerusalem.htm]

At that point, a transfer of authority happened and we believe that the fledgling Church became the New Israel.

Golly!

THat SURE SOUNDS FAMILIAR...

Number Ten

Here is MORMONism's own creed:

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

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