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Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary
The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer

Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.

This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.

The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.

By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.

Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.

The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.

Called (from the series Woman) ©2006 Bruce Herman
  [oil on wood, 65 x 48”; collection of Bjorn and Barbara Iwarsson] For more information visit http://bruceherman.com

This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.

Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.

Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”

Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.

If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.

Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.

God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: mary
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To: WVKayaker
There is nothing wrong in saying you pray for people ,in fact The Bible says to pray unceasingly

"Pray without ceasing" 1 Thessalonians 5: 17

stand up in front to show others how ‘holy’ you are...

I openly admit I'm a sinner, so you're clearly wrong in your assumptions

I wish you a Blessed Evening!

1,061 posted on 12/14/2012 4:42:41 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: bramps

we’ll keep the light on...


1,062 posted on 12/14/2012 4:45:44 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: D-fendr

You don’t believe God’s Holy Spirit Word is the Final Authority and suddenly you are an expert. Are you in the running to be the next pope?


1,063 posted on 12/14/2012 4:47:48 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Natural Law; WVKayaker
We Catholics believe that Jesus left us a Church with a teaching authority to prevent the issues associated with each persons experiences, biases, and limitations becoming his own personal Magisterium.

Kids believe in Santa ...just because someone believes something does not make it true..

The infallible word of God teaches nothing about priests, Popes or magisterium being the interpretor of God word..

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1,064 posted on 12/14/2012 4:56:14 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: daniel1212; Natural Law
Likewise Trent, "If anyone says that in ministers, when they effect and confer the sacraments, there is not required at least the intention of doing what the Church does,[6] let him be anathema.”

Thank you.... We all know Trent is still affirmed by every pope....including the curses against protestants

1,065 posted on 12/14/2012 5:01:05 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Syncro

Yep, they have made the scriptures all about mary, and then get offended when we point it out...


1,066 posted on 12/14/2012 5:03:22 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: WVKayaker

Bingo !


1,067 posted on 12/14/2012 5:04:35 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
"The infallible word of God teaches nothing about priests, Popes or magisterium being the interpretor of God word..."

How could you possibly know, you reject over half of the Sacred Deposit of Faith and do not possess infallibility on the rest. If you hold that only those who know what you know, who have interpreted as you interpret are saved you are no better than a Gnostic. If what you believe is sufficient for you, see to your own Salvation and God Bless you, but please do not project that on to millions of others who love God at least as much as you do. God will be our judge.

Peace be with you.

1,068 posted on 12/14/2012 5:08:46 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: stfassisi; metmom
I love my faith and am thrilled when someone asks me questions about what I believe.

Not doubt catholics do - PRIDE. Christians love God and are thrilled to tell someone about JESUS.

The persecutions strengthen my faith because Our Blessed Lord told us we will be persecuted because of Him p> You will be persecuted for man-made teachings? LOL!!

You call this persecution? Prepare to fall apart if you EVEN witness it! Read about Paul - that's persecution! And he called it merely a nuisance.

Catholicism makes their flock thin skinned and the biggest whiners.

1,069 posted on 12/14/2012 5:12:10 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
PRIDE.

I asked you not to post me anymore a long time ago.

Talk about PRIDE!

Please stop posting me. I only wish to pray for you.

1,070 posted on 12/14/2012 5:22:18 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi

I love my faith and am thrilled when someone asks me questions about what I believe.
______________________________________

It seems you love the Mormon “faith” too

and you arent that thrilled about someone pointing out the differences between what they believe and the Bible..


1,071 posted on 12/14/2012 5:38:46 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: stfassisi

Pray for those w/Pride - those who think their works are needed for salvation.


1,072 posted on 12/14/2012 5:42:12 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; mitch5501; BlueDragon; bonfire
I would add this:

using liberal Protestants for whom the Scriptures are not the wholly inspired Word of God

Well, liberal Protestants as just as Protestant as you are. I haven't read from, nor met, an Episcopalian, or a Methodist who would not ardently defend Sola Scriptura and then proceed with it wherever his proclivities lead him. Your interpretation of the scripture differs, that is all; the fact is you both pick whatever you like from the scripture and ignore what you don't like or explain it away. You both lack the patristic authority of the Early Fathers.

However, while I may, of course, point out to liberal Protestants just as you, quite justifiably, can point out to liberal Catholics, my most hotly disputed point on this thread is not that, but the overall trend toward individualism, making the Christian religion fit modern sensibilities; that may not be modern American liberism of the Kennedys, but liberalism it is. Protestantism is by definition liberal, because Sola Scriptura is a liberal doctrine, leaving the Hoyl Scripture at the mercy of the individual reading it. When Catholics do something like that, they go against the grain of the Catholic culture, and it is the Reformation that enabled them and gave them rhetorical tools. When a Protestant discovers that polygamy is OK if there is a "necessity", or female bishops, or homosexual "marriage" are OK because there is nothing in the Bible against it, -- he is simply doing what Luther started, reading the Scripture with his own understanding.

The fact that Rome now forbids torture, and uphold religious freedom and free access to the Bible, and other things in contrast to the past, simply examples how sola ecclesia allows autocratic authority to do whatever it will.

One should distinguish development of practice from development of dogma. It is no different than recognizing that the earth is round or bacteria cause disease: torture was thought of as a proper method of substantiating evidence, and now we know better. It is remarkable that despite that being a best prosecutorial practice, the Church called for applying torture mildly. The changed attitude regarding torture does not prove fluidity of the Catholic dogmas regarding the core of our faith.

1,073 posted on 12/14/2012 5:46:10 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: stfassisi; metmom; CynicalBear
Name the ACTUAL miracles that satan worked that is written in the Bible.

Exodus 7:11, "Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments."

Exodus 8:7, "And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt. "

What did Satan say to Jesus?

"And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it." —Luke 4:6

Jer 23:13 "Among the prophets of Samaria I saw this repulsive thing: They prophesied by Baal and led my people Israel astray.

One more time..WHAT DID JESUS SAY ???

Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

If False miracles were not possible..why would Jesus tell us this?

Act 19:13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out."

Why do you think Jesus gave us THIS warning ?

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you.Away from me, you evildoers!'

The purpose of the miracles of Christ, was to verify who He was... The miracles of the apostles were to verify the gospel and who Christ is

Miracles that do not point to Christ, and Christ ALONE are demonic.. ANYTHING or ANYONE that takes our eyes off of Christ, come from the pit of hell

1,074 posted on 12/14/2012 5:52:17 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

Don’t forget when Satan struck Job.


1,075 posted on 12/14/2012 5:56:28 PM PST by DungeonMaster (Not voting against multiple ObamaPhoneWoman votes anymore.)
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To: annalex; WVKayaker; daniel1212; Elsie; presently no screen name
It is indeed good for people to marry, if they are free to do so, and of course willing. This was not the case with Luther and, especially, his lover.

LOL...What your church says means nothing to God or the saved.. Remember

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

1,076 posted on 12/14/2012 6:01:38 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Mad Dawg; boatbums; RnMomof7; Natural Law; Dr. Eckleburg
the never ending round-and-round on these threads does not speak particularly well of the spiritual state of any of us.

Why so? The truth does not change. Of course I will post the arguments that should be familiar to any Catholic, and in fact to anyone who ever studied Catholicism. The alternative is to let the Protestants be without objection, and that is damaging to our culture and their souls.

They do not go away convinced. That is fine. First, some probably do, -- the seed falls inside and when it springs forth, Annalex and Mad Dawg are both forgotten and we don't get a thank-you. People convert to the Catholic Church all the time: that is because someone took trouble talking to them and making them uncomfortable about their sect.

Further, people who post most and seem to never learn anything are not here to learn and probably won't convert: their minds are made up and hardened. But their repetitive silly retorts, sarcasm, pontifications on the scripture they have no clue about, -- are an evangelizing tool for you and me. Can someone bring back Dr. Eckleburg? Your fruit is one who harbored the same objections, jerked the same knee when confronting a Catholic, who reads the thread and reads the Protestant take and the Catholic response. with all respect to my interlocutors on the thread, I do not post for them, I post for the unknown reader.

From time to time someone I never heard from drops on a thread like this and thumps the whole bundle of Protestant prooftexts on me. You can see, he expected that to close the argument; you can here the fionality of the thump. Then the bundle breaks apart under textual analysis: the Bible does not say what he thought it says, or fits the Catholic doctrine just fine, hand in glove, but he did not know it. And then he huffs and puffs some more, and then he leaves. He will never read the Bible through the Protestant crooked glass again. That is a good day in evangelism. Rejoice.

1,077 posted on 12/14/2012 6:05:53 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Running On Empty
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ..

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 ¶ If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1,078 posted on 12/14/2012 6:13:12 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: metmom

Amen


1,079 posted on 12/14/2012 6:14:54 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

I amazes me to what extent there is a lack of knowledge of what scripture actually says amongst the Catholics.


1,080 posted on 12/14/2012 6:19:08 PM PST by CynicalBear
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