Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
My apologies for misunderstanding.
Dear, Met
Personally. I think your reading more into it than you need to but that’s your decision on how you probably see it
I just find it odd that some people would not want to openly express their faith. I love my faith and am thrilled when someone asks me questions about what I believe.
I have even faced plenty of persecution for my faith from people that are even close to me . The persecutions strengthen my faith because Our Blessed Lord told us we will be persecuted because of Him
Don’t worry, I won’t ask you again since FR has adopted political correctness sadly
I wish you a Blessed day!
Never been upside down. Rarely even get my feet wet. I know how to do it, right! I'm also sure I saw that upside number earlier. Oh yeah, I responded to a post there... Good seeing your cheerful refutations to those who can't see that forest!
Find for me from scripture where the disciples taught that Mary was to be revered or that they taught that Mary was bodily taken to heaven.Luke 11:27:They simply revered her: Luke 11:27.
In Luke 11:28 Jesus rebukes the statement in 27 to make it clear that Mary isn't to be exalted above all other humans and in fact the following includes her.27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
It's clear from the words of Jesus that all are blessed if they hear the word of God and obey it. Mary did this, and so has every Christian since the beginning that has that personal "saved" relationship with God.28He replied, “Blessed rather [Adverb - Used to indicate one's preference in a particular matter] are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Here is your statement at the end sent back to you, with a little editing:
Read the scripture every now and then and you will be Catholic Christian, like me, and understand it.
; > )
Your responses seem to be designed as traps for those of us who reveal the cult of the Roman Catholic Organization. It is a man-based organization which feels good, but will bring confusion and death. God is our leader, not some guy in gilded clothes, changing your organization's rules as he pleases. Do you still eat fish on Friday?
We are joint heirs with Christ, his brothers and sisters, grafted into His Holy family! We are destined for eternity with Him... and you are welcome to join with us. But, belonging to that abomination of desolation won't get you there.
Plus, we have Spirit filled minds and lives being led in the Scripture to reveal Him to the World...
Have you been filled with His Spirit yet?
Acts 2: 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
Ephesians 3: 14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole familya in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Matthew 12:47 Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."Kind of evens the playing field.Matthew 12:48 Jesus replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
Matthew 12:49 Pointing to His disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.
Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
Jesus was very careful in doing all he could to keep people from lifting Mary up as a perpetual virgin in the role of intercessor between us and Huim and, like Jesus, being taken bodily into heaven.
Blessed though she certainly is, she is one of us.
No I’m not welcomed to my own interpretation and if you knew God’s Word you would know that.
You don’t know that but you would be happy to provide me w/Scripture that contradicts me! ROFLOL!!
No, of course I don’t think your interpretation of Holy Scripture and God’s Word are identical.
Believing that would be blasphemy at the least.
Here's another incident where He taught who is blessed .....
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave You birth and nursed You." Luke 11:27
Jesus replied, "But even more blessed are all who HEAR the Word of God and OBEY IT." Luke 11:28
And the secular worldly 'church' not only REFUSES to Hear and Obey - they do the exact opposite. And they claim to be the church that Jesus started and has a pope (who they claim are infallible) who has inscribed on his gown - 'I'm all yours Mary'! How is that for out and out deliberately deceiving their flock.
Yes, Jesus taught what He knew people didn't know then and for all succeeded generations to come - so no one can deceive those who seek after TRUTH.
In these forums that is not a bad prediction, but that was not where I was going with the question. Whether sufficiency or exclusivity is the sola model followed I would like to show a common ground between Protestantism and Catholicism.
Although all Scripture is profitable, is it all necessary for Salvation? I will argue that it is not. Some say that 100% of Scripture is necessary, some say 100% plus, some say only the New Testament, or only the Gospels, and others say only the beatitudes. Everyone can cite versus that detail specific items as necessary for Salvation; faith, belief, baptism, works, etc. but a comprehnsive reading of ALL of Scripture will lead us to the conclusion that there is a plan for Salvation unique to each of us based upon our gifts, trials, opportunities and circumstances. Ultimately, Salvation is dependant ONLY on the will of God and one size does not fit all.
If we fight over the specifics of our doctrines we claiming that all who do not believe exactly as we do are damned we are implying Salvation comes only through superior knowledge and that is no where to be found in Scripture OR Tradition. It implies that until we achieve complete knowledge with complete fidelity to the intent of the Holy Spirit we cannot be saved. That was the heresey of the Gnostics.
"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
"Do all things without murmuring and arguing, so that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, in which you shine like stars in the world. It is by your holding fast to the word of life that I can boast on the day of Christ that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. But even if I am being poured out as a libation over the sacrifice and the offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you— and in the same way you also must be glad and rejoice with me." - Philippians 2:12-18
Peace be with you.
So the HOLY SPIRIT teaches and it would be blasphemy to believe it! Amazing 'stuff' comes from the secular worldly Rome/RCC.
Try this - a church with man made teachings say something is from God and you believe it. Yet, their man made teachings/doctrines void God's Word.
"And so you cancel the Word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others." Mark 7:13
You are entitled to believe deception - but you aren't entitled to say you weren't warned because He already hnows how many times people were warned and they rejected it. NO ONE will be able to say to God when the time comes 'they didn't know'. NO ONE and that includes all the 'infallible' deceitful leaders.
Obfuscation aside, what I actually said was:
“No, of course I don’t think your interpretation of Holy Scripture and God’s Word are identical. Believing that would be blasphemy at the least.”
Do you disagree?
It seems only an RC needing an argument would make marriage btwn two never married believers into fornication, while who knows what propagandist psychohistory derived the idea of "Luther's unbridled masturbation habit" as supported by Scripture
One of your own apologists (Dave Armstrong) quotes Luther for support in opposing masturbation, as in warning that if priests, monks, and nuns find that God's ordinance to produce seed and to multiply is too powerful and strong within them then "you may be sure that they will not remain pure but inevitably besmirch themselves with secret sins or fornication." (Luther's Works, Muhlenberg Press, Volume 45, p. 19) And in judging that "Onan must have been a malicious and incorrigible scoundrel. This is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a Sodomitic sin . . . That worthless fellow . . . preferred polluting himself with a most disgraceful sin to raising up offspring for his brother. (Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 38-44; 1544; LW, 7, 20-21)
I see a pattern of individualistic self-indulgence in Protestantism that has lead over time to bizarre interpretations of the Holy Scripture
Rather, what is bizarre is the lengths you will go to in order to defend an autocratic self-proclaimed elitist entity with a pattern of self-indulgence in self-exaltation and carnal means of defending herself.
And which led to gross and widespread moral excess in Rome itself, which fostered the Reformation. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes "the deplorable corruption of the Church, the grasping cupidity of Roman curial procedure, the cold commercialism and deep-seated immorality that infected many of the clergy" at the the time of Luther.
And holding Scripture as supreme and working to establish claims by its manner of substantiation has borne much superior fruit in worship (including its multitude of hymns by multitudes of converts) holiness and works (from Biblical exegesis to mission to social works) in proportion to its numbers.
And which was by those who further developed and continued in the path of the supremacy of Scripture and relying on establishing things after its manner, versus that of the sola ecclesia of Rome and cults which it historically contended against.
Rome has not the likes of souls from Matthew Henry to Whitefield to Spurgeon to Moody to Fanny Crosby. And which faith exposes the modern declension seen by men as Osteen. Hinn, etc. whose means are contrary to historical Evangelical SS principals. And there will always be those who seriously depart from the faith as Scripture foretold,
And as true faith must rely on spiritual power and conversion, and cannot rely on carnal means and institutional security, thus its present declension requires separation from such.
I do realize that you likewise are grieved, by those forsake the old paths of Rome, however, it is modern Rome itself that fosters such, and under sola ecclesia if the organization goes south then the members cannotr separate unless they be in schism, and thus as Rome went liberal then we saw the rise of the SSPX and sedevantists.
But we do so in accordance with consensus patrem. There is that continuity of hermeneutics, you know. You should have it, too.
We do indeed have Scriptural traditions, but as the NT had to continually rely on establishment by Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, and not on autocratic self declaration, so must the church of the living God today, and those who are of the Spirit find fellowship based on a common regeneration by the power of God, and relationship with Christ, not on ID with a particular church.
Catholics understand that Paul was using the literary technique of hyperbole.
The problem in dealing with this question might stem from what your posts indicate: perhaps you don’t see any difference between your interpretation and application of Holy Scripture and God’s Word.
It seems incongruous that you would think he was referring to the intention of the Mass and as the heresy of Donatism versus the intent of the priest to do what the church intends, as that the aspect the often discussed issue of sacramental validity.
In any case, such a charge should have been made clear as to why.
So have the Mormons.
I have no doubt it does to those who do not understand the concept of in personna Christi.
Peace be with you
We’re good.
I agree.
We've jibber-jabbered all over this subject; but I Always fall back on the DIRECT question Jesus was asked, and His DIRECT answer to it: In John 6:28-29.
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