Posted on 11/02/2012 4:50:22 AM PDT by NYer
I have blogged before on Purgatory. For example here: Purgatory – Biblical and Reasonable. I have also provided a PDF document on the Biblical roots of the teaching here: PDF Document on Purgatory .
On this Feast of All Souls I want to reflect on Purgatory as the necessary result of a promise. Many people think of purgatory primarily in terms of punishment, but it is also important to think of it in terms of promise, purity and perfection. Some of our deceased brethren are having the promises to them perfected in purgatory. In the month of November we are especially committed to praying for them and know by faith that our prayers are of benefit to them.
What is the Promise which points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus Made the promise in Matt 5:48: You, Therefore, must be perfect as you Heavenly Father is perfect. Now in this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: that we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.
St. Catherine of Siena was gifted by the Lord to see a heavenly soul in the state of grace and her account of it is related in her Dialogue. It is here summarized In the Sunday School Teacher’s Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism:
The Soul in the State of Grace- Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her. Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen. St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter. She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth. ” My father,” she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation. I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.” [1].
Yes, this is our dignity and final destiny if we are faithful to God.
So, I ask you, “Are you there yet?” God has made you a promise. But what if it is not yet fulfilled and you were to die today without the divine perfection you are promised yet completed? I can only say for myself that, if I were to die today, as far as I know I am not aware of mortal sin. But I am also aware of not being perfect. I am not even close to being humanly perfect, let alone having the perfection of the heavenly Father!
But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. And the last time I checked, Jesus is a promise keeper!. St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion. (Phil 1:6). Hence, If I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that he has begun in me. By God’s grace, I have come a mighty long way. But I have a long way to go. God is very holy and his perfection is beyond imagining.
Yes, there are many things in us that need purging. Sins, and attachments to sin. Worldly clingings, and those rough edges to our personality. Likewise most of us carry with us hurts, regrets, sorrows and disappointments. We cannot take any of this to heaven with us. It wouldn’t be heaven. So the Lord, who is faithful to his promise, will purge all of this from us. The Book of Revelation speaks of Jesus ministering to the dead in that he will wipe every tear from their eyes (Rev 21:4). 1 Corithians 3:13-15 speaks of us as passing through fire in order that our works be tested and that what is good may be purified and what is worldly may be burned away. Job said, But he knows the way that I take; and when he has tested me, I will come forth as pure gold (Job 23:10).
Purgatory has to be – Yes, gold, pure gold, refined, perfect and pure gold. Purgatory has to be if God’s promises are to hold.
Catholic Theology has always taken God seriously on his promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes above. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice, by the grace of God.
Esse quam videri – Purgatory makes sense because perfection promised us is real: Esse quam videri (To be rather than to seem). We must actually be purged of the last vestiges of imperfection, worldliness, sin and sorrows. And, having been made perfect by the grace of God, we are able to enter heaven of which Scripture says, Nothing impure will ever enter it (Rev 21:27). And again, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the souls of the just made perfect (Heb 12:22-23).
How could it be anything less? – Indeed, the souls of the just made perfect. How could it be anything less if Jesus died to accomplish it for us? Purgatory makes sense based on the promise of Jesus and the power of his blood to accomplished complete and total perfection for us. This is our dignity, this is our destiny. Purgatory is about promises not mere punishments. There’s an old Gospel hymn that says, “O Lord I’m running, trying to make a hundred. Ninety-nine and half won’t do!”
That’s right, 99 1/2 won’t do. Nothing less than 100 is possible since we have the promise of Jesus and the wonder working power of the precious blood of the Lamb. For most, if not all of us, purgatory has to be.
I get the impression from your posts that you only permit yourself to read a portion of another's post until you get to a part you can nitpick from which to glean offense and then cease to look any further for either intent or context. I get this impression because I did not assert here nor anywhere else - indignant or otherwise - that "Catholics are mindless and do not know or desire to know God and the truth". I merely quoted your own Catechism that showed my point that "faithful" Catholics are expected to give "obedience of faith" to all that is passed down to them from their hierarchy. You seem to be unable to dispute that so you resort to ridicule and wagging your finger in my face to mind my own business and take care of my own spiritual life.
The funny thing is, this is an OPEN Religion Forum where a thread was posted praising the wonders of Purgatory. Yet when someone who disagrees with this dogma dares to state why he does so, he is met with blatant bigotry and self-righteousness. I believe on this issue that the Catholic Church is WRONG and it is really too bad that this bothers you. There is nothing that I don't understand about Catholicism and that same old ragged excuse is tedious and ineffective. Perhaps it would help your own spiritual life if you spent more time in the Bible and less time carrying around that persecution chip on your shoulder here.
Seriously? How is that different than when someone dares to say why the do agree with it?
The attitude that "I am right and Catholicism, by its very existence" is wrong wears thin after a while. I suggested that "It it finished" may have a deeper meaning based upon a closer look at the actual words used and the Scrfiptural context. I admitted that there was room for disagreement on and what I got was a major ration of attitude and you-know-what back in return.
Has it ever dawned on you that God has a plan for Salvation for each of us and that it is not a one size fits all plan? (Luke 12:48) I know from reading Scripture that faith, belief, works, Baptism and a lot of other things are presented in Scripture as being salvific. That tells me that there is a unique plan for each of us that is tailored to the specific circumstances of our lives at every given moment. And yes, I do expect more from you than I do from some of the other anti-Catholic posters because you have been given so very many gifts and blessings.
There are two more words I invite you to become familiar with; benignity and humility, both are Fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Peace be with you and prayers for the future of our country.
“That tells me that there is a unique plan for each of us that is tailored to the specific circumstances of our lives at every given moment”.
NL, that is very well-expressed. Thank you.
To add to your perspective, here are some words from Pope Benedict’s “Jesus of Nazareth”:
“God addresses every individual by a name that no one else knows, as Scripture tells us (Rev.2:17). God’s love for each individual is totally personal and includes this mystery of a uniqueness that cannot be divulged to other human beings.”
“I have called you by name, you are mine.” Isaiah 43:1
“He made us. We belong to Him.” Psalm 100:3
“Is He not your Father who created you? Has He not made you and established you?” Psalm 119:73
If you are working with disembodied spirits you’re working with demons disguised as dead people returned from the grave...
They’re fooling you.
Ed
What a fantastic book. Pope Benedict XVI has a way of taking extremely complex ideas and explaining them is such a matter of fact and obvious manner that it leaves one breathless. I would recommend this book to any Christian interested in the life of Jesus. Peace be with you
Ed,
There are many types of spirits. To put them all in one category would be like saying all trees are identical.
There are many levels of angels in the Light, just as there are many levels of demonic or fallen angels in darkness. There are earthbound spirits that are just lost and there are those that have sold their soul to the darkness.
Aborted fetus spirits and miscarried spirits are not bad or evil. They are just stuck and don’t know where to go. I just send them home. Life does not begin at conception. It actually exists before conception and enters the physical at conception. If this were not the case, the zygote would not form.
The key to discernment is to Love them all as they are all creations of the same God. If they are not of the Light, they fear the Light. Thus the key is to project the highest Love to them all as they see the Love as Light. This is why the commandments relating to Love (God & thy neighbor) are the most important laws.
As long as I stay connected and radiate that Love, they cannot harm me. Just as a spring flowing clean water outward cannot have dirty water flowing back in at the same time. The demonic fear that the Light will burn them up, just as the weeds will be dealt with in the “Tares in the Wheat” parable in Matthew 13. Do not ever allow fear to enter you while doing this work or you will get burned. The only way to keep out fear is to realize that it is not me doing the work and to allow the Holy Spirit to work through me. I’ve actually learn a lot by listening to the words that come out of my mouth that are not mine.
I’ve been doing this type work for over twenty years. Yes, I’ve screwed up and got stung a few times. But by God’s Grace I have been pulled out of myself and renewed, only to go at it again and again.
The higher demonic do not fear the Light. They will actually reach into it in order to fool you into thinking they are of the Light. But, the power of my Savior is far greater than theirs and thus I have no fear, even of the highest demons.
Many years ago, I met satan face to face while doing this work. The room got so cold it was as though I was in a blast freezer. I turned to Michael and said, “There he is, you can get him.” To which Michael replied, “It’s not time yet!” That is when I realized that even the demons and satan are creations of the same One God who is in control and everything is unfolding according to His Divine Plan on His Time Schedule.
In the same manner that earthbound spirits are redeemed and assisted to the Light, I’ve helped many people find there way at the time of their death. My father in law died a few years ago. Just prior to his death, I asked for the portal to be opened up and for people who knew him to come and greet him. I never said one word as I sat in a recliner in his hospital room. My wife was in the other side of the room with him as he opened his eyes wide and proclaimed, “I like the welcoming committee.” Afterward I told her that his older brothers who predeceased him were there to greet him.
I was born and raised in that stuff...my grandmother was a medium and we attended their seances, my mom and stepdad were big in Theosophy and the New Age. Our house was filled with books published by the Lucifer Trust, later the Lucis Trust, with books by Annie Bessant, Blavatsky, on and on, and I absolutely guarantee you that those “spirits” you’re communicating with are in fact demons, deceiving you.
I won’t respond to any more of your nonsense, but there is no way that you are communicating with spirits of dead humans, they are all demonic spirits putting on an act and fooling you, and if you don’t wake up you’ll eventually come face to face with the one who’s been deceiving you, and it won’t be pleasant.
Ed
Ed,
Please understand. Every one of the dark spirits try to deceive me. That is the norm, not the exception.
You treat an earthbound spirit the same way as the dark ones. You still place them in a bubble of Light created by prayerful thoughts. The response is just different from them.
Blatant bigotry and self-rightousness is NOT what Catholics who defend Catholic dogma get in return. Sorry, it just is not true, more like Scriptural refutation against unbiblical doctrines. I'm sure to those who find they have no basis for defending a dogma may feel they are being personally attacked, but that's that persecution complex I was talking about coming out.
The attitude that "I am right and Catholicism, by its very existence" is wrong wears thin after a while. I suggested that "It it finished" may have a deeper meaning based upon a closer look at the actual words used and the Scrfiptural context. I admitted that there was room for disagreement on and what I got was a major ration of attitude and you-know-what back in return.
See, this is a good example of that complex again. No one says Catholicism is by its very nature wrong about everything, that's silly especially since we state repeatedly that there are MANY doctrines that we hold in common. How many times have I personally stated such? A bunch! I think the real problem is that many Catholics do not know why they must believe something, just that they are supposed to, no questions asked. There have been many times my Mom and I talk about a certain doctrine with which we disagree and even after I show her from Scripture what God's word clearly says, she answers with, "Well, that's just what we believe.". That kind of thinking was not good enough for me and it's why I sought to know what was the truth from the Bible.
I did not intend to leave the Catholic Church but, after I understood what the Gospel is, I knew I could not stay. No one had to tell me to leave, I knew in my heart it was not right to stay. I have not regretted that decision after all these years and I know there is nothing standing in my way if I ever wanted to return, but the more I learn the more convinced I am that it was the right choice to leave. So, maybe that is God's plan for me. I don't agree that there are multiple ways to salvation - because it is ONLY through faith in Christ that we can be saved - but God does speak to us as individuals and He knows what we need to be convinced of the truth when we seek for Him with all our hearts.
I hold no ill will towards you nor any Catholics here. I pray for eyes to be opened to the truth of the Gospel and for people to experience the freedom that is in Christ. I join you in praying for our country and the outcome of the election tomorrow. A lot is riding on it and I pray God's will is to remove the ungodly from those who rule over us and put in place men and women who love Him and desire the good of our country.
I've never been to a RC church but I've heard that many times."That kind of thinking was not good enough for me and it's why I sought to know what was the truth from the Bible"
I hear that!
"I think the real problem is that many Catholics do not know why they must believe something, just that they are supposed to, no questions asked"
To be fair,they certainly aren't the only ones.I think it would be difficult to find anyone that understood completely everything they believed.In fact,it seems many people don't even know what they believe,let alone understand it."Faith cometh by hearing" so I suppose what ever is heard the most,is trusted the most,regardless of wether it's right or wrong.
The trouble really starts when we go to the Scriptures to try and justify what we already believe and in relation to that I honestly think I was blessed to have zero religious anything in my life until one fine day 8-)
To belong to a body that declares itself "the one true" anything would make for a lot of inner turbulence should it be found to be just plain wrong.More so if that was where your assurance came from.
Again, it is clear that you do not understand faith. When you repeatedly make statements like that and "There is nothing that I don't understand about Catholicism..." it tells me that you believe the greatest arbitrator of Truth is human reason.
Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." - John 20:29
Again, it is clear you are wrong concerning what you presume about me! As a former Roman Catholic and the daughter of a life-long Roman Catholic mother who lives with us, I understand COMPLETELY where the problem lies. It is slightly humorous that you continue to insist you know what I believe. If you really did, you would know that I have repeatedly stated that we come to know God by faith - not human reasoning - but that God DOES call upon us to reason WITH Him. Specifically He says:
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." (Isaiah 1:18)
This thread is about a dogma that has NO basis in Scripture and it contradicts Scripture in multiple ways. Almighty God says that He will both forgive our sins and "remember them no more". I was pondering this truth this morning and it made me think that, if God forgets our sins after He forgives them, then what purpose could there be for an intermediate place between here and heaven? I asked a person who believed in karma and reincarnation that, if there is no personal god, then who is keeping score? He didn't have an answer. In the same vein, if God has forgotten our sins by His grace, then who is "minding" Purgatory? Who is keeping score on how many sins we have yet to recompense for the "temporal" punishments due them? If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin, then what need is there for any more punishments we must endure?
As a Catholic, I would have to just accept this teaching by faith because the magesterium has deemed it to be true. I could read the Scriptures and notice the discrepancy but I would be condemning myself if I refused to accept it. The same thing happened with understanding the Gospel. When I saw from Scripture that I can KNOW I HAVE everlasting life and that it comes by grace through faith and not based on my works, I knew that I had to make a choice. I could stay in the religion that told me such assurance was NOT possible or I could believe what the Bible said and leave. You view this dichotomy as choosing between my own reason or faith in the Catholic Church to teach me the truth - even when I could see there was contradiction. So, I stand by my contention that many Catholics do not know why they must believe something. Like my Mom, they believe it because they must be obedient to the Church - even when there may be that still, small voice in their hearts telling them to reason TOGETHER with God and understand that their souls can be white as snow and wool through the blood of Jesus Christ, our Savior. I continue to pray for her that the Holy Spirit will open her eyes to the truth of the Gospel - that, as she is reading Scripture in Mass, she comes to realize that she CAN know she has eternal life and she can rest in the assurance that her faith saves her.
Thank you for your comments. I agree with them. This last part, I believe, may just be the gist of the problem we have experienced so many times on these threads. It is really hard to admit we can be wrong about something. On this subject of Purgatory, the Catholic Church has set itself apart even from the Orthodox Church - there are other areas as well, but this is one where they differ sharply. Combined with the Catholic Church's proclaiming that they are "infallible" on matters of faith and morals when making such proclamations, for someone to prove from Scripture that they could actually be wrong about something is unthinkable. The whole house comes crumbling down if even on one dogma they are found in error. It's why so many just accept it and don't worry and why so many here defend their church so vociferously.
I thank God that you have come to the knowledge of the truth and pray that, in some small way, the discussions we have here can open more eyes to that same knowledge. God bless you, mitch5501!
Your assertion that "There is nothing about Catholicism I do not understand" makes it clear that it is you who is wrong about what you presume about you. Even the Doctors of the Church never had the hubris to make that assertion.
Those whose interpretation of Scripture is limited to the literal - historical sense simply cannot see things revealed in the anagogical, spiritual and typological senses. With respect to Purgatory you are arguing against yourself when you make the spiritual assertion that the blood of Jesus cleansed all of your sins but refuse to concede that the cleansing has a name. Purgatory is not a place, or a time, or a state of being, it is a process of purgation. It is there/then that any sins we have committed and not confessed are removed if we are indeed worthy. Your issue is with the limitations of English and human language, not about the doctrines of the Church.
Peace be with you
"When you want to participate in an honest discussion get back to me. Until then, have a wonderful life."
How do you have an honest discussion with people who blaspheme the Holy Spirit by claiming the Holy Spirit leads them to teach as the Truth today the exact opposite of what they claim the Holy Spirit led them to teach as the Truth yesterday?
In spite of the pretense of relying on Scripture, the only thing that constantly comes through in all their arguments is their dedication to the declaration, "Non serviam"
Regards
Did you ever wonder why those who balk at the concept of an infallibile Magisterium become so indignant when anyone fails to accept their interpretations as absolute, final and inerrant? Even Satan quoted Scripture and no doubt those under his sway still do.
I am not saying that any party to these discussions is themselves evil, but the notion that Scripture must be manipulated and narrowly defined so as to substantiate and rationalize the Reformation is. That practices effectively reduces Scripture to the work of men, robbing it if its Divinity. That is exactly what was done to the other half of the Deposit of Faith by the reformation. Qui Bono, for whom the benefit? Certainly not God.
Peace be with you
That's exactly right. I spent years trying to avoid admitting that the Catholic Church is Christianity and other things are the works of men. No long before I gave up and went to RCIA, it was the realization of exactly what you said that made me give up and surrender.
Believe it or not, when that realization hit me my blood literally ran cold. The only time I ever felt even close to it was when I had been badly injured and they started a transfusion with blood that must have come right from the refrigerator.
Regards
It is ironic that you can demonize some people by claiming they "blaspheme" the Holy Spirit by claiming He leads them to teach something as truth one day and then teach the exact opposite the next - yet you give NO example. It's ironic because that is EXACTLY what your Roman Catholic Church is guilty of doing many, many times. One glaring example is on this issue of "Purgatory".
Natural Law has described Purgatory in a way that implies no one really knows for sure what it is and, at best, it is a guess whether it even is a place or just a state of mind, whether it is instantaneous or can last thousands of years, whether it is physical agony or mental anguish. How's that for defining a dogma for you guys?
If you are aware, there is an "Apostolic Constitution" called INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA that dealt with Indulgences. It was released on 1 January 1967 by Pope Paul VI. Would this pass muster as binding on the Catholic faithful for their obedience of faith? Here's what it says:
For all men who walk this earth daily commit at least venial sins;(11) thus all need the mercy of God to be set free from the penal consequences of sin.
Following in the footsteps of Christ,(16) the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in his sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.(17) This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints,(18) whereby the life of each individual son of God in Christ and through Christ is joined by a wonderful link to the life of all his other Christian brothers in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ till, as it were, a single mystical person is formed.(19)
Thus is explained the "treasury of the Church"(20) which should certainly not be imagined as the sum total of material goods accumulated in the course of the centuries, but the infinite and inexhaustible value the expiation and the merits of Christ Our Lord have before God, offered as they were so that all of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. It is Christ the Redeemer himself in whom the satisfactions and merits of his redemption exist and find their force.(21) This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.
For this reason there certainly exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth a perennial link of charity and an abundant exchange of all the goods by which, with the expiation of all the sins of the entire Mystical Body, divine justice is placated. God's mercy is thus led to forgiveness, so that sincerely repentant sinners may participate as soon as possible in the full enjoyment of the benefits of the family of God. (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html)
It goes on of course, but it definitely states that Purgatory is a "place" where punishment for venial sins takes place and that there is a "treasury of merit" that, with the right price or prayer or deed, can be debited to another's account to speed up their time in Purgatory. That this dogma has "developed" over the centuries, was NEVER something taught by the Apostles, does NOT have the required "unanimous consent of the Fathers", does NOT have Scriptural warrant, I would say this pretty much qualifies for your category of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" though I doubt you will consider it possible.
I've experienced something along those lines myself.It was about 5 or 6 years after I became a believer in Jesus Christ.It was when I grasped that the Word of God was actually true.My blood didn't actually run cold but it sure made me buckle at the knees.I'll never forget that day.'Light bulb' moments that bring you physically to the ground are rare indeed.I'd hope everyone would have such an experience with God.In a good way of course,since we know He will eventually bring everyone to their knees one way or another.
BB...thankyou dear sister and God bless you!..."the discussions we have here can open more eyes to that same knowledge"
Indeed,I've learnt a lot in the last decade here on the RF.Though the facts,figures,Sword dueling and arguing have flown thick and fast on these threads the one thing that stands out in all the flurry is the spirit of the posters.
May God bless and keep us all in Jesus' name.
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