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To: circlecity

It seems that using any source material to support your argument is too much for you, eh? You would prefer mere invective? Too bad. A fool brings in the “Jews in Spain” the way you did, since the Spanish Inquisition was run by the government of Spain, not the Church. And likewise, there were no “knights” of the Spanish Inquisition. Next time, instead of relying on spittle and sneering, try some facts.

Here’s one for you: If Luther had stuck to his original pronouncements, of attempting reforms of genuine issues, instead of what he eventually did, he might have ended up a saint. A few of his 95 theses were valid, and did indeed address things which were issues. Some were being addressed, but not forcefully enough, others needed address. But his flaws, like those of me, or you, were self-inflicted. He had free will, and he employed it, to whatever end he met. As I said before, one hopes he made a deathbed conversion, because it is to be hoped that all men are saved. That includes him.

From there, you conflated about the mafia and the Borgias. The mafia began in Sicily in the nineteenth century, four hundred years AFTER the Borgias. Don’t let history get in your way? That’s a democrat tactic.

There is NO buying salvation. What can you give God that He doesn’t already have? The Church has NEVER and will NEVER teach that. Buying salvation is the viewpoint of a person in the system of law, not grace. The Church teaches that good works in the system of grace are required for salvation, but that “works of law” (Rom. 3:28, Gal. 2:16) do not. When Adam disobeyed God’s law, God used the law to condemn us (Rom. 7:10). “Works of law” refer to the Mosaic law, or any system where we approach God as a debtor who owes us for our works (we call that “works righteousness”). We cannot approach God this way. Instead, we have to approach God in the system of grace, with faith in Christ, acknowledging that God owes us nothing, but, because He is a faithful Father, will reward us for our works. This is why James teaches that a man is justified by works and not faith alone, and why Paul says the doers of the law will be justified. These works refer to works in the system of grace, when we approach God with faith in Christ, and not works of law where we approach God as a debtor who owes us.

As to indulgences, your statement is incorrect. I could easily go over the passages in the Bible about confessing your sins, but since might involve copying and pasting, you might not enjoy it. Suffice it to say that when we confess our sins, and receive forgiveness for them we still owe temporal punishment for them. If you steal something from a store near your house, and you feel badly, you might be inclined to go to that store, and say you’re sorry. Then, you’d need to make amends. That’s the temporal punishment I mentioned. If I do something, and I go to the sacrament of Confession, and receive forgiveness, I still need to make amends. Indulgences are fairly uncommon these days, and only remit temporal punishment for sins already forgiven through the sacrament of Confession. Put another way, even if a person pursues receiving an indulgence of some sort, if they haven’t already been to Confession, confessed that particular sin and received absolution, then whatever indulgence would be involved has no effect.

You cannot buy salvation. You cannot buy forgiveness. Indulgences do not grant forgiveness of sins. But thank you for your straw man argument.

Child molestings? Spare me your drivel. I have five kids. You? I work with children literally every day. Shall we talk about the prevalence of molestations in protestant ecclesial communities or public schools? Nah? Your thinly-veiled canard is just that.

I can back up what I’ve said here. I copied and pasted in my earlier comment to support what I was saying. You replied with nothing but conflation and invective and ad hominem attacks. As I said, those are democrat tactics. What that says about you is not my problem, but yours.


27 posted on 10/14/2012 6:01:20 AM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: sayuncledave

You again? Buzz off. Whining to the mods must not have worked, eh, cuz I certainlyt didn’t and won’t issue any retractions. Your side drew first blood, you think we won’t come back with both barrels? If you can’t take the heat then stay out of the kitchen. The second you stepped into the ring you took the risk of getting knocked out so don’t whine like a little girl when you find your back on the canvas.


28 posted on 10/14/2012 9:42:13 AM PDT by circlecity
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