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To: SZonian

Just to clarify, so far we’ve established that the Apostles were the men of Galilee and that there is no reason to believe that Christ’s ascension was more public than the eleven Apostles. Furthermore that the Apostles were specially chosen witnesses of Jesus Christ throughout the world. It says as much in the passage itself. http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/1-1.htm Acts 1:1-11. So the Bible doesn’t refute an appearance by Jesus Christ to a specially chosen witness. Joseph Smith’s First Vision fits within the realm of possibility of Biblical truth.

When you say, “LORD Jesus or anthropromorphisms” which manifestations of the LORD Jesus occur in the Bible and which are anthropomorphic? Can you show me examples of what you mean from the OT and the NT? I’m just working to understand your definitions of things. It’s my main contention that the Bible is subject to exegesis and this leads to misinterpretations and false doctrines.

In the Bible Jesus says, “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”John 6:46 What does it mean to be “of God”? We get a clue in Matthew where Jesus also says, “Blessed are those who are pure in their hearts, for they shall see God.” [Aramaic in plain English]

http://biblos.com/matthew/5-8.htm

Note that the Greek word opsontai occurs nine times in the NT. Take a look at the Strong’s http://concordances.org/greek/3708.htm namely: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

Clearly, Joseph Smith had this kind of experience, but who is “of God” or “pure in heart”? Why those who have their sins washed away. See this article on the First Vision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vision

NB: his sins were forgiven him and therefore he was “of God” and “pure in heart”.

What is most intriguing to me is that given the dominance of the Trinity Joseph Smith instead saw two distinct persons - the Father and the Son. That is in keeping with both the Bible and the early Church Fathers.

I find the preoccupation with Joseph Smith curious. It boils down to what one wants to believe. Can you imagine what was written about or said about Peter or Paul by the Jews, Romans, and pagans? The real debate and challenge of the LDS is their doctrine, not Joseph Smith. Disprove the doctrine and you disprove Joseph Smith, not the other way around.


83 posted on 08/29/2012 6:24:35 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD; SZonian
Blessed are those who are pure in their hearts, for they shall see God.” [Aramaic in plain English]

For starters, this is greek translated into english 10. If anything it was probably in hebrew given the hebraism "for they shall see God" which signifies, possess God, enjoy his felicity: as seeing a thing, was used among the Hebrews for possessing it.

Secondly - 1 John 1: 8 and 10 state: 8* If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

additionally - Mt 15:19* For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

This applies even to smith - he could not be pure in heart

84 posted on 08/29/2012 7:12:35 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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