10, I’m not sure if you’ve forgotten or not, but our conversations were usually pretty tepid and civil. For you to insinuate that I would call in a “posse”, an oft used slur used all over FR to identify many of the FI’s tells me there is either a lack of confidence or respect in my willingness to discuss singularly. Not sure which. However, I can’t control it if any stumble across the discussion and decide to participate. But I won’t ping them on to it.
My answers are my own as well, through study, research and contemplation.
“Emotional baggage”? Not sure what that is supposed to imply. Am I considered “emotional”?
If we’re going to discuss/debate, then by all means in a civil manner, sarcasm extremely limited and identified as such or non-existent. Ad hominems, personal attacks, thinly veiled inuendos, etc. are off the table.
“Personal anger or hurt”? Jeez, this just keeps getting harder. I do believe I am being confused with someone else here. If I am “angry or hurt”, it is because the system of Mormonism promoted a series of falsehoods [through deliberate obfuscation and ommission] that led me to believe one thing vs. the truth.
If I choose to cease the conversation I’ll let you know. I’m not into mind games, “I win”, etc. There will probably be points of contention or obstacles that just can’t be overcome. A mutual decision to leave them should be agreed upon.
Interpretation of scripture will be another stumbling block. I don’t think either of us is in a position to alter how we each interpret a given passage.
With regards to my first question, I was referring to the passages quoted in post 74, Acts. In order for JS to make the claim of the 1st vision, one has to suspend the verses I quoted as truth. Ergo, is the Bible in error when it’s stated that Christ will return the same way He left? If not, then JS is obviously in error when he claims the “personages” to be God and Christ, yet it is only much later in mormonism that the “personages” are identified as such.
Error vs. completeness. Two different things. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2855791/posts?q=1&;page=51
If memory serves, the RCC has included additional books into the Bible they use. Books that Evangelicals or even Mormons don’t. I’m no theologian, so I’m not in a position to ascertain the veracity of these books.
Mormonism makes many claims of “wrongness” in the Bible. We don’t have enough time to discuss or debate each one. I’m looking at those within the framework of the founding of mormonism. The ones Mormons use, ignore or disavow in order to claim their religion is the true and complete restoration of Christianity.
Understand about being busy, in this environment, I consider it a blessing to be employed. When you have the time. I would also ask for the same consideration.
Regards,
SZ
SZ, I didn’t mean to insinuate anything. I was actually just referring to myself as regards to “posse” (not having one), not you in any way. If someone does stumble in that happens, particularly if they follow either of our postings. The rest, again wasn’t and isn’t directed at you. I just don’t want to cause rancor which I feel helps no one. That can be hard when discussing beliefs dearly held.
Otherwise you sound like a wonderful FReeper, neighbor and friend. I do appreciate and agree with your love of the Scouts, family and Jesus Christ.
As for your question, here’s how I see Acts 1. What’s the context? http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/1.htm
1. Jesus is not speaking to the general public. He’s speaking to a very narrow and specific group - the Apostles.
2. All the Apostles were Galileans, except Judas, but Judas is out of the picture at this time.
3. Just prior to his ascension Christ says, “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
A. He states that he has a Father distinct from himself, that is he could have simply said “I” as in the “dates I have set by mine own authority”. What isn’t said is telling.
B. Heavenly Father has his own authority.
C. The Holy Spirit is also separate and brings additional power/authority.
D. Apostles are special witnesses of Jesus Christ.
At verse 9 we see the ascension:
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
From this we learn:
1. Christ was taken up bodily into heaven.
2. Heaven is a place.
A. It is away from earth, up as opposed to down toward its center.
B. Having a body in heaven isn’t unusual, but normal and consistent with both the concept of resurrection and The Resurrection itself.
3. The Apostles, all Galileans, witnessed it (a supernatural event). We don’t know anything else as to additional witnesses of this supernatural event. The scriptures are silent as to this.
4. At some point above the ground a cloud obscured the Apostles vision and they couldn’t see Jesus anymore.
A. We don’t know if the cloud was natural or supernatural.
B. We don’t know at what exact height the cloud obscured Jesus from the sight of the Apostles.
Now we get to your verse:
10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
This makes it sound as if just as the cloud obscured Jesus from their sight within moments two angels (messengers - this is the NIV version and they use “men”) addressed to the Apostles.
The “Men of Galilee” are the Apostles, themselves. Not the entire public body or any public body of Galileans. From Easton’s Bible Dictionary: This was also one of the names of reproach given to the early Christians. Julian the Apostate, as he is called, not only used the epithet himself when referring to Christ and his apostles, but he made it a law that no one should ever call the Christians by any other name.
http://www.ccel.org/e/easton/ebd/ebd/T0001400.html#T0001416
Acts 1:11 ...“why do you stand here looking into the sky?
This to me is like saying “get to work”, “be busy building the Kingdom”, “start witnessing and sharing the Gospel”.
It continues and concludes: “This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
“This same Jesus” - the Jesus you knew will return. He is currently in heaven (as distinct from anywhere else - earth, paradise, Hades, etc.). He will come back privately to special witnesses chosen by him.
That’s how I see that verse. It doesn’t contradict at all, but clarifies. For me, this kind of Biblical “wrongness” is one of interpretation.
I can give additional examples as we continue our discussion.
Sincerely,
TenTen