SZ, I didn’t mean to insinuate anything. I was actually just referring to myself as regards to “posse” (not having one), not you in any way. If someone does stumble in that happens, particularly if they follow either of our postings. The rest, again wasn’t and isn’t directed at you. I just don’t want to cause rancor which I feel helps no one. That can be hard when discussing beliefs dearly held.
Otherwise you sound like a wonderful FReeper, neighbor and friend. I do appreciate and agree with your love of the Scouts, family and Jesus Christ.
As for your question, here’s how I see Acts 1. What’s the context? http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/1.htm
1. Jesus is not speaking to the general public. He’s speaking to a very narrow and specific group - the Apostles.
2. All the Apostles were Galileans, except Judas, but Judas is out of the picture at this time.
3. Just prior to his ascension Christ says, “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
A. He states that he has a Father distinct from himself, that is he could have simply said “I” as in the “dates I have set by mine own authority”. What isn’t said is telling.
B. Heavenly Father has his own authority.
C. The Holy Spirit is also separate and brings additional power/authority.
D. Apostles are special witnesses of Jesus Christ.
At verse 9 we see the ascension:
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
From this we learn:
1. Christ was taken up bodily into heaven.
2. Heaven is a place.
A. It is away from earth, up as opposed to down toward its center.
B. Having a body in heaven isn’t unusual, but normal and consistent with both the concept of resurrection and The Resurrection itself.
3. The Apostles, all Galileans, witnessed it (a supernatural event). We don’t know anything else as to additional witnesses of this supernatural event. The scriptures are silent as to this.
4. At some point above the ground a cloud obscured the Apostles vision and they couldn’t see Jesus anymore.
A. We don’t know if the cloud was natural or supernatural.
B. We don’t know at what exact height the cloud obscured Jesus from the sight of the Apostles.
Now we get to your verse:
10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
This makes it sound as if just as the cloud obscured Jesus from their sight within moments two angels (messengers - this is the NIV version and they use “men”) addressed to the Apostles.
The “Men of Galilee” are the Apostles, themselves. Not the entire public body or any public body of Galileans. From Easton’s Bible Dictionary: This was also one of the names of reproach given to the early Christians. Julian the Apostate, as he is called, not only used the epithet himself when referring to Christ and his apostles, but he made it a law that no one should ever call the Christians by any other name.
http://www.ccel.org/e/easton/ebd/ebd/T0001400.html#T0001416
Acts 1:11 ...“why do you stand here looking into the sky?
This to me is like saying “get to work”, “be busy building the Kingdom”, “start witnessing and sharing the Gospel”.
It continues and concludes: “This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
“This same Jesus” - the Jesus you knew will return. He is currently in heaven (as distinct from anywhere else - earth, paradise, Hades, etc.). He will come back privately to special witnesses chosen by him.
That’s how I see that verse. It doesn’t contradict at all, but clarifies. For me, this kind of Biblical “wrongness” is one of interpretation.
I can give additional examples as we continue our discussion.
Sincerely,
TenTen
Thanks and you as well.
But I still see a couple of problems in believing that God secretly introduced Christ to JS.
1st of all, it is stated numerous times in the Bible that no man hath seen the Father [Not to be confused with the LORD Jesus or anthropromorphisms].
[1 Tim. 6:15-16, "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."]
[John 6:46 Jesus says, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father."]
Thus, in order to believe the transition from "personages" to God and Jesus in the numerous iterations/versions of the 1st Vision, one has to suspend belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.
2nd, how did Joseph Smith see God and Jesus, without the Priesthood, [JS supposedly receives the priesthood much later] when he says:
"And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
"For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live." -D&C 84:21-22
3rd, “This same Jesus” - the Jesus you knew will return. He is currently in heaven (as distinct from anywhere else - earth, paradise, Hades, etc.). He will come back privately to special witnesses chosen by him."
I don't see anywhere in the Bible where your last sentence is supported. The Holy Spirit/Ghost maybe, but not Jesus.
The Bible clearly states that Christ would return the same way He left, in full view. It gives no indication whatsoever that He or the Father would meet in private with anyone, especially in "the flesh" as JS came to relate this.
We also are left with the subsequent inconsistencies by other prophets when they state numerous times that "angels" visited JS, not Christ and God. JS himself described his visitors as “personages”, not Christ and God the Father.
Given all this, what we're being asked to do is suspend belief in the Bible as inerrant in order to lend credibility to JS's word. Difficult, if not impossible under the circumstances.
Regards,
SZ