Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
A Jewish class on why Jews do not accept Christianity. I post for Jews to self-educate and for Christians to understand the Jewish point of view--not that it matters (that they do.)
Praise G-d! May I ask, how would you classify those of us that are Gentiles, recognize that Yashua observed Torah, and believe, as his followers, that we should do the same to the extent we are able?
Currently GOD is still working with the Gentile Nations...
He has not concentrated on Israel just yet...
Acts 2:17 “’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Joel 2:28
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
CURRENT NEWS:
Mission Network News hardly ever talks about ministry in Saudi Arabia. It’s not because it’s not happening. It is. But it’s one of the most difficult places to be a Christian, let alone do ministry. That’s what makes this next story so profound.
“Maryam” is a Saudi woman, and she’s done something so unusual she’s taking the internet by storm. According to Mahabat News, she is the first modern day Saudi woman to announce her faith in Jesus Christ on YouTube.
Todd Nettleton with Voice of the Martyrs is amazed. “To see a Saudi woman put her face—even though it’s veiled, but to put her face on the internet and say, ‘I’m not a Muslim any more. I’m a Christian now.’ She basically is signing her own death warrant.”
According to reports, this video has made Saudi officials extremely angry. It is to the extent that they called to take necessary measures to deal with Christian evangelism in Saudi Arabia. Nettleton says, “It’s being talked about even at the highest levels of the government. [They’re saying], ‘Hey wait a minute, our young people are leaving Islam. They’re following Christianity. We’ve got to put a stop to it.’ And over 1 million people have already watched the video on YouTube.”
Nettleton tells about his thoughts when he saw this. “The first thought I had was the incredible courage it took to do that. The second thought is just the excitement that even in Saudi Arabia, which we don’t talk about it very often, God is reaching people. Muslims are having dreams and visions. They’re seeing Jesus Christ, and they’re coming to know Him and believe in Him.”
In any western nation, this wouldn’t be a big deal. In Saudi Arabia, however, “The Saudi government says Saudis are 100% Muslim. And so, she basically is renouncing that and putting a target, really, on her back.”
Why is Saudi Arabia rejecting all other religions? Nettleton suggests, “The Saudi government bills themselves as the guardian of Islam’s holy sites—not only to guard those sites in a security sense, but also to guard those sites spiritually and not allow Christianity to even have a foothold on the Arabian Peninsula.”
Nettleton is issuing a call to prayer, especially now. “It is the middle of Ramadan. Muslims all over the Arabian Peninsula are fasting and praying and seeking God. Let us pray that they find Him, just as this lady did in a dream when Jesus came to her. Let us pray that many more Muslims will meet Jesus.”
While this is a surprising story coming out of Saudi Arabia, it’s not the only story in the Middle East. The Mohabat report also indicates that a Kuwaiti prince has given his heart to Christ. Nettleton isn’t surprised. “You know, as we see the Gospel coming into some of these countries, it’s only natural that it will reach all walks of life. So when we see political leaders or people within the royal family, obviously that’s very exciting because they are in positions of influence, and they have a chance to really make a difference. So it’s a hopeful sign.”
“According with (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1009.htm) the name shall be “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”; “el-gibbor” is the part translated here as “The mighty God” and means “mighty man” or just “strong person”. Hard to sell that to Jewish autorities.”
Actually, Gibbowr is the word being translated “mighty.” The “’el” is the word being translated God. It is used in all these following scriptures (bracketed):
Isa 5:16
But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and [God] that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
Isa 8:8
And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land,O [Immanuel].
`Immanuw’el
Isa 8:10
Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for [God] is with us.
Isa 10:21
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty [God].
(This one is another Gibbowr’el, Mighty God)
Isa 12:2
Behold, [God] is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
There are many more, of course. The ‘el is never used when it is translated “mighty men,” and is always used in this context. It is sometimes used to refer to idols, or even false gods, so the context usually determines if it is the God of Israel.
The Jewish authorities ought to learn Hebrew.
“My comment was a reply to a quote from the poster, who was describing the content of his class (who is and who isn’t a prophet). Jews do not consider Daniel a prophet.”
A Prophet is anyone who has heard from God and speaks His message. Daniel certainly qualifies. The Jews can consider anything they want, but they can’t deny that Daniel had visions from God, including one that even gave the time table for when the Messiah would appear.
What I find odd as a Jew is the Christian perspective which says that the Pharisees were evil while as a Jew I know that Jesus was a member of a Pharisee sect and by his words a follower of Hillel...
Does islam cause desolation? Look at how it ravages nations.
The abomination that causes desolation stands in mockery today.
They have sown hellfire for 1400 years now. Harvest time is coming soon.
When you consider that Christianity began in Israel, and that the first evangelism was to synagogs in other countries, it seems that some Jews believed Jesus to be their Messiah. I’m married to one who does. There are actually quite a few Jews who believe Jesus is their Messiah. It would be interesting to compare the percentage of Jews who believe in Christ to the percentage of other racial and ethnic groups who believe in Christ. Maybe from a percentage standpoint, there is nothing exceptional about the Jews who reject Christ.
“Why do the Jews reject Jesus?”
It is simple, really.
A) He didnt perform any of the messianic tasks that would be exhaustive and conclusive to him. Example: Rebuilding the Temple, World Peace, Restoration of the Priesthood, Restoring the Jewish people to Torah Worship, Universal Knowledge of G-d, Restoring the lost tribes, Restoration of sacrifices.
B) Not one verse in all of Tanakh (OT) does it say the Law will end and be replaced by a “law of christ”
C) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf (thus ending the law)
D) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that Human Sacrifice or Human vicarious atonement is acceptable to G-d, on the contrary, G-d says he hates it and it is an abomination to him, something that never entered His mind.
E) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that G-d will come in the flesh as a human being. On the contrary, G-d says twice, in Deut 4, that the Jews at Sinai, saw no form, only a voice, so dont give Him a form.
F) The Christian versions of the Tanakh, the LXX (Jews only translated the first 5 books) and modern translations do not accurately render the Hebrew Masoretic texts. Example: Ps 22, does not say “pierced his hands and feet” Ka’ari, in the hebrew means, “like a Lion” they surround my hands and feet (same language as other parts of 22) Likewise Is 53 has many errors, Is 7:14, does not say “virgin”.
G) The book of Hebrews incorrectly states that “Only” through the shedding of blood, is there forgiveness. That is an incorrect rendering of Lev 17:11. Lev 17 is specifically stating that blood is not a food source, dont eat it. (also acts 15) bloods sole function other than keeping animals alive, is to be a sacrificial tool. It does not say that ONLY through blood is atonement. Lev 5:11 makes it clear that even flour atones. Also, prayer, repentance, charity, fasting also atone.
So there is a small sample....there is much, much more.
bookmark for later reading
“The Jewish authorities ought to learn Hebrew.”
I can assure you they do. The JPS used by mechon-mamre is not the most authoritative. The Rabbi’s know Hebrew better than any christian authority, stick to your Greek.
13 See, my servant will act wisely[b];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.....
Nope, not the man from Nazareth.
There is nothing in the Bible that calls the Pharisees 'evil'
The problem was one of self-righteousness, which is a disease that tends to hit all those that are focused on the form of religion, and not on the worship and adoration of God. In that respect, the Pharisees were often examples of those who relied on their religion and 'good deeds' and not on God's Grace (e.g., the example of the Pharisee and the Publican).
There is no reference to any sect to which Jesus belonged. HE was the God the Son, the Word made flesh. HE didn't need any sect - HE was/is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
You may have been thinking about Paul. He was a Pharisee. As was Nicodemus. And probably Joseph of Arimathaea
Jesus Christ did not 'follow' any man. Hillel may have been a good and perceptive student of the Bible, and thus he may have said some things that were true - and therefore consistent to what Jesus pronounced later. Perhaps Hillel was one of the 'doctors' who Jesus spoke with ('amazing them with HIS answers and questions') when he went to the Temple when HE was 12 years old.
JC isn’t the messiah for me (a conservative Jew) for the same reason he is the messiah for you...FAITH.
***Jesus was the messiah or he wasn’t. His claim to be (not only messiah, but) equal with God is the real stumbling block. Once you’re confronted with the historicity, the factual evidence of the claim, there is very little faith required. Either He was God, or he was a liar or a lunatic. You can withdraw away and choose not to be confronted by the facts in front of you, but calling such an action ‘faith’ is an error.
Is Jesus looked at as Someone heretical? Not until they are confronted with the historical fact that Jesus claimed to be God Himself. At that point, every jew I have spoken with has doubted the historicity of the claim, even though the enemies of Christ acknowledged (and used) it at the time of His death. At this point, I would suggest that you’re at the point of doubting the historicity of the claim. You can’t go before God and claim you never heard this. It is worth checking into, for the sake of your own soul.
“Considering the timeline of Daniel’s 70 Weeks”
Your timeline is all wrong. You are not counting correctly. And the two messiahs mentioned in Daniel are NOT the same person. One is good and one is bad (cut-off) Only bad people are cut-off. There have been hundreds of messiahs, some good, some bad.
“Is Jesus looked at as Someone heretical?”
Yes, of course. That is why the Pharisees were upset with him. He was not teaching pure Torah.
“Is Jesus looked at as Someone heretical?” Yes, of course. That is why the Pharisees were upset with him. He was not teaching pure Torah.
***Was it enough to put him to death? No, otherwise they’d have done it before. Did he need to submit that robe-ripping claim to be equal with God in order to go over the top? Yup, that’s what made him a heretic, a blasphemer worthy of death. Did Jesus deserve death? Yes, if He was not Who He said He was. 3 days later He proved it by rising from the dead.
“A) He didnt perform any of the messianic tasks that would be exhaustive and conclusive to him. Example: Rebuilding the Temple, World Peace, Restoration of the Priesthood, Restoring the Jewish people to Torah Worship, Universal Knowledge of G-d, Restoring the lost tribes, Restoration of sacrifices.”
The Messiah is cut off, and the end thereof is with a flood. A flood, in the prophetic sense, would mean an army. This was fulfilled with the destruction of the Jewish Temple which had fallen so far into apostasy that not even the High Priest was legitimate.
Dan 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
“B) Not one verse in all of Tanakh (OT) does it say the Law will end and be replaced by a “law of christ”
C) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf (thus ending the law)”
He is offered as a “sin offering” to bear the iniquities of many.
Isa 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
—
D) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that Human Sacrifice or Human vicarious atonement is acceptable to G-d, on the contrary, G-d says he hates it and it is an abomination to him, something that never entered His mind.”
Isaiah 53
The Hebrew word translated to virgin is Almah, which refers to an unmarried young maiden or girl. Since this was before the 1960s, such a girl is always a virgin. There is no instance of it being used of a young woman who is not a virgin, and is always used of young girls, damsels, maidens, or translated virgin. Jewish commentaries prior to Jesus had the same understanding. Obviously, since, a girl getting pregnant the normal way would not be much of a sign.
As an example (the word Almah is bracketed):
So 1:3
Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the [virgins] love thee.
So 6:8
There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and [virgins] without number.
If it was a married woman or a non-virgin, there are other words for woman that are more appropriate to use.
For Ka’ari, it literally translates to “Like a lion my hands and feet.”
From Jews for Jesus forum poster Jans: “Already covered for Psalm 22 16 (17) is the Hebrew itself as written has issues. The reading in Hebrew is ‘Ka’ari Yadai v’Raglai’ which means literally ‘As the lion my hands and my feet’. Or ‘As the lion are my hands and my feet’. The Hebrew is either missing a verb or it makes no sense. Rabbis admit to this difficulty. As seen, to make the phrase make sense, words need to be added.
So if Ka’ari, as the lion, were actually a verb, the phrase would make much more sense. Christianity reads it ‘karu’, a verb, which means bore or pierced. They have pierced my hands and my feet. The difference would be a yod vs. a vav. The difference between the letters would be the length of the ‘tail’ which is a somewhat typical error among the scribal errors.
The dead sea scroll Psalms scroll from Nahal Hever (5/6HevPs) I found on the internet clearly shows a vav. With the vav, the word would be Karu, bored or pierced. Unfortunately, I have been unable to cut and paste the image.
This would support the LXX translation of pierced, which is used in Christian translations of the text, and would also resovle the problem of the lack of a verb. So it appears this is a Kethiv Qere.”
http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/archive/index.php/thread-1618-4.html
“You know, I had a whole post typed out to you with a bit more detail but it just now occurred to me that there is a simple answer.
JC isn’t the messiah for me (a conservative Jew) for the same reason he is the messiah for you...
FAITH.
I respect your faith. I know you can’t respect mine, but we all find out in the end. ;)”
You have faith in your traditions and heritage and don’t ask the basic questions such as... if Jesus isn’t the Messiah, why has there been no Jewish temple for almost 2,000 years since 70ad when the Romans utterly destroyed it as predicted by the Prophet Daniel? Usually, when this sort of thing happens, you can expect to be restored about 70 years later or at least told how to resolve it.
Not this time though.
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