Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
A Jewish class on why Jews do not accept Christianity. I post for Jews to self-educate and for Christians to understand the Jewish point of view--not that it matters (that they do.)
I understand and I will comply. May I just say that it is one thing to have an “open” or “town square” style of debate, but another to have people posting that my religion is wrong, my understanding of my religion is wrong, my rejection of their savior is wrong with the unavoidable consequence that I am doomed to eternal damnation?
Let me offer an example of the distinction as I understand it: I may argue with you about the meaning of certain texts or about the correct understanding of religious doctrines, but I may not (or should not) argue that the fact that you maintain your faith is an error or argue that your faith is the wrong faith.
In other words, shouldn’t there be a rule against proselytizing on these threads?
Thank you.
You’ve been on FR a long time. Do you really not know what kind of place it is? You never browsed the Religion Forum before?
OK. The rules are the rules.
I can’t say I’ve “browsed” the religion forum before, but I have engaged many times on threads of this nature and I have been equally outspoken about what I think is very wrong: proselytizing types of posts, criticism of a person’s faith or beliefs and condemnations. No one ever told me in all that time that it was wrong for me to protest against those posters or to tell them where they can shove it. Now that I know, I feel liberated. Now I can express my own candid views of the falsehood of other faiths as long as I do it politely. /s
Paul here is emphasizing that the earthly Jerusalem is in slavery...i.e. the law is insufficient and brings only slavery. The heavenly Jerusalem for which one must have faith is the one to be believed in. The heavenly Jerusalem is the real fulfillment of Isaac birthed from Sarah...the child of promise.
Physical Jerusalem will continue to be trodden down until the end because it is an earthly city just as all the others. Many believe that when Jesus talks of the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled (that era being the expansion from the Old Covenant under the Jews to the New Covenant to the rest of mankind) is the time of the end.
The same reason chrstians reject islam, and sikhism, and bahai, and mormonism, and . . .
When your people cannot defend themselves, christians often step in. Please don't paint us all with the same brush. Have a good day.
Hey blasater!
Long time no hear! hope you are doing well my friend!
Just want to add something to what you say right here:
Prayer, Repentance, Charity, Fasting all atone for sin. Plenty of scriptures available to show that. I believe that as well, however: It is hard to know the *Sincerity* of anyone by outside appearance works and deeds...
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mark 7:22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
IMO that is what makes every person *Soiled* and unclean in the face of ALmighty GOD....
Men can fool other MEN but never GOD....He sees us for who we truly are....
GOD Bless you and Shalom!
Tarah!
The Religion Forum has alot of debate on right and wrong doctrines from
Mormonism
Judaism
Catholicism
Prostestanism
I don’t believe anyone means any person any religious harm, people are just passionate about what they believe...
We are Free People unlike the Arab World, so it is GOOD IMHO that we can discuss and debate topics that are about the CREATOR for we are all created in his image....
Thin Skinned people are Liberals not COnservatives...:)
“The Messiah is cut off,”
As mentioned previously, this is a bad thing...there have been many bad messiahs...and there is no “THE” messiah in Daniel. Just messiah...that is a tampering of the Hebrew. As a matter of fact, in all of Tanakh (OT) there is not one THE (def article) in front of messiah.
You didnt really answer B and C.
“Isa 53:1-12 He is offered as a “sin offering” “
The servant of Isaiah is identified multiple times in Isaiah 40 through 54. It is Israel, Jeshrun, Jacob and Zion. All are poetic prophetic collective nouns for for Jewish people corporately. Not once does Isaiah ever use or describe the servant as “messiah”. Not once. The prophet Isaiah constantly switches from a “singular” sevant...Jacob...and plural servants. for example.
Is 43:10 (Israel) “You are My witnesses,(plural)” declares the Lord,
“And My servant (singular) whom I have chosen,
The sin offering in Isaiah is an Asham or guilt offering. This does not help the christian argument, it makes it fall.
An Asham only atones for a limited type of sin. It is NOT a chatat. And per Lev 5:11, even FLOUR atones...not a sacrificed animal. Also, the animal had to be killed on the altar, blood sprinkled on the sides of the altar, the animals fat and ofal burned. Jsus suffocated on a Roman torture device, his throat not slit, no blood sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned.
Is 53 does not change the fact that G-d (Deut 12, Jer 19) says he HATES human sacrifice and it never entered His mind.
G-d tells us never to engage in it. That is what the pagans do, so dont act like them. So, the church expects us to believe that G-d then acts like a pagan, and kills off his own human mortal son? G-d breaks His own Torah? G-d forbid!
“The Hebrew word translated to virgin is Almah,”
No. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah. Almah means young woman. It says nothing about her state of sexual purity. Betulah does. Isaiah himself uses the word betulah in later passages, so clearly, if he wants to make it virgin, he knows which hebrew word to use.
Also, G-d is not going to take a mans wife and through a spirit agent, knock her up, giving the impression to all of a fornicator and adulterer.
Also, The whole point of Isaiah 7:14 is to give KING AHAZ a sign. It was not a virgin birth that was a sign to him, but the AGE of the child. By the time the child grew to know right from wrong, the two Kings who sought to destroy Israel would be killed. That was fulfilled in fact at that time. A virgin birth 700 year in the future in of NO value to Ahaz. And the implication would also be that there was 2 virgin births. Which of course is wrong.
Ps 22
13:They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
David frequently uses language that shows him “surrounded” by enemies...like bees..like water...like dogs...and this is the point of Ps 22. It is about David...feeling threatened...not about a future event.
I am very familiar with teh K’ari and K’aru debate. It is not K’aru. In all other places where K’ari is found, the christian bible gets it right. “Like a lion” it is only here that they wrongly make it Pierced.
http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Psa22.pdf
I know it does no good to argue points with someone that hasn't been visited by the Holy Spirit. That was the point of my post. The Holy Spirit is your teacher and advocate when He abides in you. The Jews have longed for a new Temple ever since the old one was destroyed, but they don't realize it's not needed anymore. It is just needed for the last days to take place and the Jews to make their next mistake and follow a false messiah. The chosen people were chosen to reveal Christ through their culture, traditions, and Laws.
We are taught that man is evil and can never atone for his own sin. Blood sacrifice is a temporary fix and that isn't even possible without a Temple. A Messianic Jew is simply called a "Believer", as he/she believes the OT and the NT are harmonious, not contradictory. If you look at the Jewish Feast days, they are commanded by God in Scripture, but why, and why on specific days? Jesus fulfilled all Feast days perfectly as the purpose for the Days were spelled out a thousand years before. The Passover Lamb was killed the exact hour Jesus took His last breath on the cross. He was "Unleavened Bread" and the First Fruit of the Dead. He will call us to the Marriage Feast on Rosh Hashanah. We are told this period marks the beginning of troubles on Earth and the time will be shortened to 7 years from ten years or no one would survive to Yom Kippur, Judgement Day. To follow Jewish tradition, it would have been 10 years. Then Tabernacles comes when Jesus come to Earth to rule and reign for 1000 years. The Jews celebrate Jesus. they just can't put the days and the Book together. Just because Christians have different sects and many make mistakes, doesn't mean they are all wrong. If you ask a Catholic if they worship Mary or worship the cross, they should say no,( I know what it looks like sometimes), they worship Jesus that was on the cross. A Protestant will tell you that is why they have an empty cross in their church or maybe even no cross at all. The Catholics remind themselves of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the Prots worship the risen Savior. I've never heard anyone say you should worship the cross or Mary. ( I know many Catholics that would dispute that.) This Jewish teacher is mistakenly saying Christians are told to worship foreign gods or idols, but that is a wrong premise. Jesus is, or should be the center of our worship and we are taught that He is God, a God with 3 parts. In Genesis, God refers to Himself as "Us" and "Our",.... plurals. The Spirit of God "brooded" over the waters to create the Earth. In John, we are taught that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus explained that He was the Living Word when He was here.
I don't expect to convert you or anybody else, but let's just say, the Bible is clear and complete for me and others sometime look for some way to argue. I watched the video clip and it just looked like the guy was reaching for an excuse to justify his non belief. That's fine, that's what all non believers do. When and if you are ever visited by the Holy Spirit, you will be "Born Again" and things become clearer,......different than before. A dead person doesn't know they are dead. When you become "alive", then you know you have been dead all your life. You can go out to the center of a highway and scream at a squashed armadillo and tell him a truck is coming. He will just continue to lie there staring up at the buzzards circling, as he can't see or hear you and is unable to move even if he could hear you. Those are the "miracles" Jesus performed in His ministry. He healed the blind, deaf, and crippled from their afflictions, and suddenly, they were whole. If Jesus wanted to He could have raised all the dead, cured all the blind, deaf, and crippled, with just a Word, but He only healed a few. He was merely showing us our infirmities and that we needed a Savior, a Physician, to bring us back to life to God. We died in the Garden to God. God said we would die if we ate of that one tree and we did it anyway. Adam lived on for several hundred years and one might say God lied about the dying part, but we did die to God, we were no longer Spiritually alive to Him. He has replaced our dead Spirit with His own so we can "Tabernacle" with him. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.
God makes the "rules", not some Jewish guy on the internet. We do not worship crosses or Mary. Jesus isn't a foreign God nor is He an Idol. Everything was created for Him and by Him and He wrote the Bible through the prophets to reveal Himself to His people.
This is why Jews are sticklers to Torah. You won’t get on a Torah-true Jew’s nerves asking about how their sins are forgiven—I understand where your comment comes from but it lacks understanding of Judaism, Jewish law, and philosophy. Just like we know Christians lose mountains of meaning by using translations. (someone already responded to how a Jew’s sins are forgiven...)
But in a broader sense, the purpose of the class I posted, was for Jews to learn why JC is no Jewish prophet. Since I’m sure the comments came a flyin’ before anyone listened—the answer is that all the miracles in the world mean nothing (except an ability to perform miracles) if the performer posits changing the Torah —adding or subtracting.
By the way, Jews save lives on the Sabbath-— I don’t know any Christian source beyond a passing interest in Revelations (around the time Damien Omen and other great horror movies came out). It’s not canonized for Jews and is never a proof for a Jew.
2 million Jews saw and heard, en mass, G-d at Mt. Sinai. No prophet of Jews would ever alter that (it’s in the class.)
HOWEVER— the good news is (in the forum’s new spirit of proselytizing;-) that G-d gave 7 commandments, objective commandments, to every non-Jew (christian, Budhist, Muslim et al). So I hereby re-rosthelytize to Jews to listen and then find your local Orthodox rabbi to attend a Torah class, and to non-Jews to learn about the 7 mitzvos (commandments) G-d expects of them (and tell a friend)— http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm
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