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To: GonzoII

Only if tradition gives way.


4 posted on 08/05/2012 7:19:49 AM PDT by chesley (God's chosen instrument - the trumpet)
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To: chesley
"Only if tradition gives way."

Of course the written Tradition commands otherwise

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

5 posted on 08/05/2012 7:53:37 AM PDT by GonzoII (Quia tu es, Deus, fortitudo mea...Quare tristis es anima mea?)
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To: chesley; anathemized; count-your-change; Salvation; GonzoII
Explain these contradictions….of Paul vs. Jesus


-1. Jesus Taught that Man's Governments of the World Are Under Satan, But Paul Says Their Secular Rulers Are Agents of G-d

Compare Luke 4:5-8, John 18:36, 19:18, Acts 4:26 (Ps 2:2) versus Paul in Romans 13:1-5.
The Restored Kingdom of G-d is described in the Gospels as of another order from the entire realm of the nations, which are ruled by The Adversary and whereby Jesus was crucified. On the other hand, the secular authorities with all their weaponry are stated by Paul to be G-d's own agents. (Romans 13:1-5.)

While Jesus did not provoke outright rebellion against Roman authorities like John the Baptist and the Essenes, he clearly did not consider their rule to be blessed by G-d. Paul, in contrast, again and again encouraged peaceful compliance with Roman rules and requirements. "Slaves were to compliantly serve their masters: women were to be subject to their husbands."

-2. Jesus Says Don't Exclude Heretics Or Judge Them; Paul Says Exclude Them

Jesus told us in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares how to deal with heretics. You leave them for judgment day to be separated out from the true church. But Paul teaches to exclude/shun those who come with different doctrines than Paul taught. (Titus 3:10-11 "shun a heretical person after 2 warnings"). Paul even curses them. (Gal. 1:8-9 "anyone who preaches another gospel than we preach, let him be eternally condemned.")

-3. Jesus Says Only G-d Is Your Spiritual Father, and Call No Man on Earth Your Father, But Paul Says He Is The Corinthians' Only Spiritual Father

And do not call yourself Father for your Father is one who is in heaven. (Matt. 23:9)
But Paul says:
For even if you had ten thousand others to teach you about Christ, you have only one spiritual father. For I became your father in Christ Jesus when I preached the Good News to you. (1 Cor. 4:15)

-4. Jesus Says Salvation Is By Returning to Torah (Repenting) and Obedience With Faith; Paul Says This is Heresy

Every time the word REPENT is used by Jesus it isn't some innocent word that simply means "confessing away your sins".
Did you know that the Hebrew (and Aramaic) word that "repent)"was translated from (tubh) actually means RETURNING or to return? (being that Jesus and the disciples spoke a dead version of Aramaic) So therefore Jesus was always telling his followers to RETURN to G-D, get back on the path of G-D's Word (G-d's Word is Torah). He wasn't telling anyone & everyone to simply pray away their "sins"…….the Lost Sheep of Israel had to RETURN…….

Paul's main salvation verses at odds with Jesus:
Romans 3:28 "man is justified by faith apart from observing the law".
Romans 4:5 "To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness".
Gal. 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace".
Romans 7:6 "Now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code".
Gal. 2:16 "A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, because by observing the law no one will be justified".
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast."

Here where it matters most, Paul has a different voice than Jesus (ישוע). Paul's themes are alien to Jesus’ message of salvation. They undercut, if not destroy, the message of Jesus (ישוע). The true sheep of Jesus recognize His voice, and will not follow another. (John 10:27)

-5. Paul Says Elders Are Entitled To Pay for 'Preaching & Teaching,' But Jesus Says No

In 1 Tim. 5:17, Paul wrote: "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching." Then Paul uses a verse about not muzzling an ox in an inapposite extension to imply churchgoers have a duty to pay the elders for their service. (1 Tim. 5:18.)

But Jesus said to His disciples to lay no cost on anyone they served by preaching and healing? "Heal the sick, restore life to the dead, cleanse the lepers and cast out demons from men. Do not take wages. Freely you have received, freely you shall give". (Matt. 10:8) Jesus in the prior verse was commanding the Disciples to go out and preach the gospel, so the context makes quite clear that no charge was to be made on auditors to hear the truth of YHWH.

-6. Jesus Says To Shun Sinning Believers; Paul Says To Kill Them

In Matthew 18, Jesus says if one has something against a brother, to try to work it out privately. If this does not work, bring "one or two" to witness the conversation. If you brother will not hear you and these others, "And if he will also not listen to them, tell the assembly. And if he will also not listen to the assembly, let him be to you like a tax collector and like a heathen." (Matt. 18:17.) Authorities generally interpret this to mean to shun them.
But Paul teaches someone who is caught in a relationship with his stepmother should be "turned over to Satan for the extermination of the flesh" (1 Cor. 5:5) -- this means delivering that man over to the secular authorities for execution.

-7. Paul Exhorts Celibacy, But Jesus Clearly Says It is A Choice Not Within Everyone's Power

Paul taught against being married. He wrote in 1 Cor. 10:27-28:
"Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a girl marries she does not sin."
In line with this Paul also wrote:
"I wish all were as I am," meaning unmarried. (1 Cor. 7:7.)
To help prevent the desire to be married, Paul said: ‘It is good that a man should not touch a woman.’ (1 Cor. 7:1.) And this gives one example in which Paul intended us to "Be imitators of me." (1 Cor. 4:16.) Paul clearly endorses celibacy for us too as a superior way of life.

However, Jesus speaks differently of celibacy as something for some but not all disciples. It is not a command or even an exhortation. It is merely a legitimate option. "Whoever is able to understand let him understand." Matt. 19:12.
The contradiction arises because Jesus never says or implies "do not seek marriage." Significantly, Jesus never applies any moral pressure to be celibate, while Paul clearly does so.

-8. Jesus Says There Is One Pastor and Teacher (Himself), But Paul Says There Are Many Pastors and Teachers

Jesus called his students/followers to follow HIS teachings.
Jesus stated they should follow him & his way alone.
Nowhere did he ever state for his students/followers to follow him AND another way.
Nowhere did he ever state for his students/followers to follow his teachings AND another different teaching ALSO.

Come after me and I will make you……..(Matt 4:19)
Come follow me now….. (Matt 8:22)
Come follow me….. (Matt 9:9)

I am the Good Shepherd….and there will be one flock with one shepherd. (John 10:11 & 16)

John, personally chosen by Jesus and who lived with him for 3 years and studied under him, tells us that we need no other Word than that of G-d as given through our Teacher & Shepherd, Jesus:

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth….….And you also, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. (1 John 2:20 & 27)

Paul says that we should follow him and all those he appoints in addition to Jesus:
"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors (shepherds, Greek poimenas) and teachers...." (Eph. 4:11)
"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Cor. 4:15)

-9. Paul Says G-d Is The God of the Dead, But Jesus Says G-d Is Not The God of the Dead

Paul speaks of the "Lord of the dead and the living." (Romans 14:9.) But Jesus says "G-d is not the G-d of the dead but the living." (Luke 20:38.)

-10. Paul Says G-d Does Not Live in Temples Made of Human Hands, But Jesus Says He Does

Paul says "G-d who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands." (Acts 17:24). However, Jesus said, in a correction of Pharisees who thought an oath offered "by" articles offered at the Temple were binding but not an oath by the Temple at Jerusalem itself: " "He who swears by the temple swears by the temple and He Who dwells within it". (Matt. 23:21.) Hence, Jesus’ stated that because the article of the Temple is less important than the Temple where G-d dwells at Jerusalem, an oath "by" the Temple is as binding as an oath by an article. The importance of this is Jesus affirms G-d does live in a temple made of human hands, but Paul says this is untrue.

-11. Jesus Says Not To Eat Meat Sacrificed to Idols, But Paul Says It Is Ok

Three times Jesus in the Book of Revelation condemns eating meat sacrificed to idols, even saying this is the doctrine of a false prophet. This absolute prescription also was set forth in James' ruling at the Jerusalem Council in Acts. However, Paul clearly teaches three times that there is nothing wrong in itself eating meat sacrificed to idols. (Romans 14:21;1 Corinthians 8:4-13, and 1 Corinthians 10:19-29).
34 posted on 08/09/2012 8:59:23 AM PDT by brent13a
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To: chesley; anathemized; count-your-change; Salvation; GonzoII
Back on the OP's theme of man-made tradition.....

I find it just so weird (and an ultimate contradiction) that if christians worship the same G-d (YHWH) as Jews then how are His commands regarding worship different for them and the Jews? Where exactly did Jesus do away with the rules of worship that apply to the supposed same G-d of christians & the Jews?

Somewhere, specifically, Jesus stated that the following commands regarding Worship of G-d do not apply to one set of people but to others…..Jesus very specifically stated the following only applies to jews but not christians……right?

Deut. 12:3-4:
“And you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and burn their wooden images with fire; you shall cut down the carved images of their gods and destroy their names from that place.” You shall not worship the Lord your G-dwith such things.”

Deut. 13:12-18
If you hear it said about one of the towns, the Lord your G-d is giving you to live in, that some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods ' whom you have not known.
In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your G-d. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then G-d will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.
Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then G-d will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.
The Lord your G-dwill do this if you listen to him, obey all the commands that I'm giving you today, and do what he considers right.

Deut. 18:9-15
“When you come to the land that the Lord your G-d is giving you, do not learn to do the revolting practices of those nations. Among you, there shall not be found anyone who passes his son or daughter through fire, who practices stick divination, who divines auspicious times, who divines by omens, who practices witchcraft, who uses incantations, who consults mediums and oracles, or who attempts to communicate with the dead. Anyone involved in these practices is repulsive to G-d, and it was because of repulsive practices such as these that the Lord your G-d is driving out these nations before you. You must therefore remain totally faithful to the Lord your G-d. The nations that you are driving out listen to astrologers and stick diviners, but what G-d has given you is totally different. In your midst, G-d will set up for you a prophet like me from among your brethren, and it is to him that you must listen.”

So G-d commands EVERYONE that we cannot utilize anything pagan to worship him, we cannot "take-over" nor "adopt" heathen places, buildings, statues, pictures in His name and act as though they are meant for Him. We cannot "take-over" or "adopt" heathen holy days or festivals and assert them as G-d's. These commands apply to worship of G-d…..being the supposed same being that christians also worship.

So then why is christianity (specifically it's doctrine) built on a foundation in direct disobedience to G-d (being the same "God" that christians supposedly worship)?

Of course, even though christians maintain their version of the Torah/Tanakh in their version of the scriptures, and read from it occasionally, whatever G-d actually said is irrelevant because (according to them) somehow it only applies to the Jews.

Of course, even though Jesus quotes & teaches extensively and only from the Torah/Tanakh, it's actually irrelevant………..

“Their worship is in vain, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from G-d.” (Matt. 15:9)

But that only applies to Jews, right?
36 posted on 08/09/2012 9:18:12 AM PDT by brent13a
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