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To: Mr Rogers; NYer; Salvation

If only you had taken the time to carefully read my post from the Augustine Club (what you derogatorily term as “cut and paste”) you would have found the explanation to the Catholic belief in purgatory. Beside, the great minds of Augustine, Aquinas, Benedict XVI, and to say nothing of the illustrious pantheon of intellectuals who have studied Church history and doctrine and made deliberate conversions to Catholicism including a former Chief Rabbi of Rome, considered a pre-eminent intellectual of his time, and of course the likes of literary giants like GK Chesterton and now Cardinal (St.) Henry Newman have concluded on the primacy of Peter and the Catholic Church. The rest are all wild offshoots of the bark of the one True, Catholic, Holy, and Apostolic Church as scripture, tradition, and revelation support.

Part of your problem is the myopic view that infects all of Protestantism that scripture alone interpreted of course by the pastors of some 30,000 non-CATHOLIC Christian denominations including the nearby neighborhood four-square church and individuals like yourself who claim have cottoned onto the “definite” interpretation of sacred text.

But here’s the part of the excerpt from the Augustine Club post reproduced below that you apparently did not read and hence you keep repeating your queries.
_________________________________________________________________________

Why do Catholics believe in a place between Heaven and Hell called Purgatory? Where is Purgatory mentioned in the Bible?

The main body of Christians have always believed in the existence of a place between Heaven and Hell where souls go to be punished for lesser sins and to repay the debt of temporal punishment for sins which have been forgiven. Even after Moses was forgiven by God, he was still punished for his sin. (2 Kg. or 2 Sam. 12:13-14).

The primitive Church Fathers regarded the doctrine of Purgatory as one of the basic tenets of the Christian faith. St. Augustine, one of the greatest doctors of the Church, said the doctrine of Purgatory ``has been received from the Fathers and it is observed by the Universal Church.’’ True, the word ``Purgatory’’ does not appear in the Bible, but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved ``yet so as by fire,’’ is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15).

Also, the Bible distinguishes between those who enter Heaven straightaway, calling them ``the church of the firstborn’’ (Heb. 12:23), and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them ``the spirits of the just made perfect.’’ (Heb. 12:23). Christ Himself stated: ``Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.’’ (Matt. 5 :26). And: ``Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.’’ (Matt. 12:36). These are obviously references to Purgatory.

Further, the Second Book of Machabees (which was dropped from the Scriptures by the Protestant Reformers) says: ``It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.’’ (2 Mach. 12:46).

Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from the second and third centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. In fact, the custom of praying for the dead—which is meaningless if there is no Purgatory—was universal among Christians for the fifteen centuries preceding the Protestant Reformation.

Furthermore, ordinary justice calls for a place of purgation between Heaven and Hell. Take our own courts of justice, for example. For major crimes a person is executed or sentenced to life imprisonment (Hell); for minor crimes a person is sentenced to temporary imprisonment for punishment and rehabilitation (Purgatory); for no crime at all a person is rewarded with the blessing of free citizenship (Heaven). If a thief steals some money, then regrets his deed and asks the victim for forgiveness, it is quite just for the victim to forgive him yet still insist on restitution.

God, who is infinitely just, insists on holy restitution. This is made either in this life, by doing penance (Matt. 3:2; Luke 3:8, 13:3; Apoc. 3:2-3, 19), or in Purgatory .

Also, what Christian is there who, despite his faith in Christ and his sincere attempts to be Christlike, does not find sin and worldliness still in his heart? ``For in many things we all offend.’’ (James 3:2). Yet ``there shall not enter into it [the new Jerusalem, Heaven] anything defiled.’’ (Apoc. or Rev. 21:27).

In Purgatory the soul is mercifully purified of all stain; there God carries out the work of spiritual purification which most Christians neglected and resisted on earth. It is important to remember that Catholics do not believe that Christ simply covers over their sinful souls, like covering a manure heap with a blanket of snow (Martin Luther’s description of God’s forgiveness).

Rather, Christ insists that we be truly holy and sinless to the core of our souls. ``Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.’’ (Matt. 5:48). This growth in sinlessness—in Christian virtue and holiness—is of course the work of an entire lifetime (and is possible only through the grace of God). With many this cleansing is completed only in Purgatory. If there is no Purgatory, but only Heaven for the perfect and Hell for the imperfect, then the vast majority of us are hoping in vain for life eternal in Heaven.


74 posted on 08/05/2012 12:51:59 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Steelfish

“but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved ``yet so as by fire,’’ is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15).”

Nope. Here is what 1 Cor 3 actually SAYS:

9 In this work, we work with God, and that means that you are a field under God’s cultivation, or, if you like, a house being built to his plan.

10-15 I, like an architect who knows his job, by the grace God has given me, lay the foundation; someone else builds upon it. I only say this, let the builder be careful how he builds! The foundation is laid already, and no one can lay another, for it is Jesus Christ himself. But any man who builds on the foundation using as his material gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or stubble, must know that each man’s work will one day be shown for what it is. The day will show it plainly enough, for the day will arise in a blaze of fire, and that fire will prove the nature of each man’s work. If the work that the man has built upon the foundation will stand this test, he will be rewarded. But if a man’s work be destroyed under the test, he loses it all. He personally will be safe, though rather like a man rescued from a fire.

Note Paul is discussing MINISTRY - building up Christians. Those who do well, will receive honor from God. Those who do not will still go to heaven, but they will not receive the reward a more diligent man receives.

It has nothing to do with paying a penalty for sin. That was paid in full by Jesus Christ:

“3-5 Thank God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that in his great mercy we men have been born again into a life full of hope, through Christ’s rising again from the dead! You can now hope for a perfect inheritance beyond the reach of change and decay, “reserved” in Heaven for you. And in the meantime you are guarded by the power of God operating through your faith, till you enter fully into the salvation which is all ready for the denouement of the last day.” - Peter

Your extract says “ those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them ``the spirits of the just made perfect.’’ (Heb. 12:23).”

Actually, Heb 12 says “You have drawn near to God, the judge of all, to the souls of good men made perfect, and to Jesus, mediator of a new agreement, to the cleansing of blood which tells a better story than the age-old sacrifice of Abel.”

Remember, 2 chapters earlier he writes, “11-16 Every human priest stands day by day performing his religious duties and offering time after time the same sacrifices—which can never actually remove sins. But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins for ever, took his seat at God’s right hand, from that time offering no more sacrifice, but waiting until “his enemies be made his footstool”. For by virtue of that one offering he has perfected for all time every one whom he makes holy. The Holy Spirit himself endorses this truth for us, when he says, first: ‘This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them’.

17 And then, he adds, ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’.

18 Where God grants remission of sin there can be no question of making further atonement.”

Let me repeat for emphasis:

“For by virtue of that one offering he has perfected for all time every one whom he makes holy...And then, he adds, ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’. Where God grants remission of sin there can be no question of making further atonement.”

God grants remission of sins based on the single sacrifice of Christ, and He promises ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’.

Your extract claims “Furthermore, ordinary justice calls for a place of purgation between Heaven and Hell.”

But the gift of God in Jesus Christ is NOT ordinary justice! There is NOTHING ordinary about the Gospel!

“So by virtue of the blood of Jesus, you and I, my brothers, may now have courage to enter the holy of holies by way of the one who died and is yet alive, who has made for us a holy means of entry by himself passing through the curtain, that is, his own human nature. Further, since we have a great High Priest set over the household of God, let us draw near with true hearts and fullest confidence, knowing that our inmost souls have been purified by the sprinkling of his blood just as our bodies are cleansed by the washing of clean water. In this confidence let us hold on to the hope that we profess without the slightest hesitation—for he is utterly dependable—and let us think of one another and how we can encourage each other to love and do good deeds.”

I could go on, but why? I’m just quoting the word of God, and what is that compared to “the great minds of Augustine, Aquinas, Benedict XVI, and to say nothing of the illustrious pantheon of intellectuals who have studied Church history and doctrine and made deliberate conversions to Catholicism including a former Chief Rabbi of Rome, considered a pre-eminent intellectual of his time, and of course the likes of literary giants like GK Chesterton and now Cardinal (St.) Henry Newman”...


76 posted on 08/05/2012 1:10:50 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberalism: "Ex faslo quodlibet" - from falseness, anything follows)
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