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To: Steelfish

“but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved ``yet so as by fire,’’ is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15).”

Nope. Here is what 1 Cor 3 actually SAYS:

9 In this work, we work with God, and that means that you are a field under God’s cultivation, or, if you like, a house being built to his plan.

10-15 I, like an architect who knows his job, by the grace God has given me, lay the foundation; someone else builds upon it. I only say this, let the builder be careful how he builds! The foundation is laid already, and no one can lay another, for it is Jesus Christ himself. But any man who builds on the foundation using as his material gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or stubble, must know that each man’s work will one day be shown for what it is. The day will show it plainly enough, for the day will arise in a blaze of fire, and that fire will prove the nature of each man’s work. If the work that the man has built upon the foundation will stand this test, he will be rewarded. But if a man’s work be destroyed under the test, he loses it all. He personally will be safe, though rather like a man rescued from a fire.

Note Paul is discussing MINISTRY - building up Christians. Those who do well, will receive honor from God. Those who do not will still go to heaven, but they will not receive the reward a more diligent man receives.

It has nothing to do with paying a penalty for sin. That was paid in full by Jesus Christ:

“3-5 Thank God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that in his great mercy we men have been born again into a life full of hope, through Christ’s rising again from the dead! You can now hope for a perfect inheritance beyond the reach of change and decay, “reserved” in Heaven for you. And in the meantime you are guarded by the power of God operating through your faith, till you enter fully into the salvation which is all ready for the denouement of the last day.” - Peter

Your extract says “ those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them ``the spirits of the just made perfect.’’ (Heb. 12:23).”

Actually, Heb 12 says “You have drawn near to God, the judge of all, to the souls of good men made perfect, and to Jesus, mediator of a new agreement, to the cleansing of blood which tells a better story than the age-old sacrifice of Abel.”

Remember, 2 chapters earlier he writes, “11-16 Every human priest stands day by day performing his religious duties and offering time after time the same sacrifices—which can never actually remove sins. But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins for ever, took his seat at God’s right hand, from that time offering no more sacrifice, but waiting until “his enemies be made his footstool”. For by virtue of that one offering he has perfected for all time every one whom he makes holy. The Holy Spirit himself endorses this truth for us, when he says, first: ‘This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them’.

17 And then, he adds, ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’.

18 Where God grants remission of sin there can be no question of making further atonement.”

Let me repeat for emphasis:

“For by virtue of that one offering he has perfected for all time every one whom he makes holy...And then, he adds, ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’. Where God grants remission of sin there can be no question of making further atonement.”

God grants remission of sins based on the single sacrifice of Christ, and He promises ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’.

Your extract claims “Furthermore, ordinary justice calls for a place of purgation between Heaven and Hell.”

But the gift of God in Jesus Christ is NOT ordinary justice! There is NOTHING ordinary about the Gospel!

“So by virtue of the blood of Jesus, you and I, my brothers, may now have courage to enter the holy of holies by way of the one who died and is yet alive, who has made for us a holy means of entry by himself passing through the curtain, that is, his own human nature. Further, since we have a great High Priest set over the household of God, let us draw near with true hearts and fullest confidence, knowing that our inmost souls have been purified by the sprinkling of his blood just as our bodies are cleansed by the washing of clean water. In this confidence let us hold on to the hope that we profess without the slightest hesitation—for he is utterly dependable—and let us think of one another and how we can encourage each other to love and do good deeds.”

I could go on, but why? I’m just quoting the word of God, and what is that compared to “the great minds of Augustine, Aquinas, Benedict XVI, and to say nothing of the illustrious pantheon of intellectuals who have studied Church history and doctrine and made deliberate conversions to Catholicism including a former Chief Rabbi of Rome, considered a pre-eminent intellectual of his time, and of course the likes of literary giants like GK Chesterton and now Cardinal (St.) Henry Newman”...


76 posted on 08/05/2012 1:10:50 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberalism: "Ex faslo quodlibet" - from falseness, anything follows)
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To: Mr Rogers

Conveniently you say you are “quoting” the word of God when indeed you are making an interpretation that is at odds with the early Church fathers who were very well versed in the very texts you quote. The whole idea of the primacy of St. Peter and the Church which this thread is all about is that we don’t end up with a Tower of Babel set of interpretations where each one is a “Church” unto himself/herself. Just ask the Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Scottish Reformed Church, Wesleyites, Calvinists and the list goes on endlessly not to mention the televangelists, the Rev. Wrights, Rev. Sharptons, where each denomination not unlike yourself claim to make authoritative interpretation of Sacred Scripture.


77 posted on 08/05/2012 1:29:58 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Mr Rogers; Steelfish
Mr Rogers, you reference 1 Cor 3:15: He personally will be safe, though rather like a man rescued from a fire.

The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

Further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

80 posted on 08/05/2012 2:12:43 PM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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