are you aware the title of your thread is also a book on the same subject by C.S.Lewis???I have said before, I love and get angry at God.
If one of my kids was hurting one of my other kids, they’d PAY.
Why is it not so with us?
Pain is a survival tool. It makes one take action.
Where did you come up with the notion that pain in and of itself is a bad thing?
Certainly not from either even a rudimentary understanding of biology, or religions.
God told us in the beginning of the Bible that sin and evil have entered the world. He also told us who is responsible for it.
The child with the flopping foot is suffering due to the sin of mankind. Not because of any evil in God.
When we see or are made aware of a little bit of some of the results of sin in the world, we get just the slightest bit of awareness of how bad sin is.
A main part of the evil of sin is, it makes the innocent suffer. If just the evildoers suffered due to their sin, all we would have is “justice.”
When we yell at our wife, put ourselves first, clock out early, hate somebody, take the biggest piece of pie, falsely accuse someone - or when we just fail to do the right thing, like go along with a dirty joke or let our kids cuss or look the other way when someone is hurting. . . we don’t feel so bad. We’d like to continue these and all other other sins, yet have no evil in the world. Can’t happen. Sin and evil go together.
But then think of the girl with the flopping foot. The sin we treat so casually in our lives is part of the cause of that.
Why doesn’t God just cancel the world and thus end the suffering? He could have, but he so far has not. He says because of His mercy. Yes, it is more merciful to have the flopping foot than for everyone left to get cast into hell.
Suppose God ended the world the day before that poor child was so mutilated. She’d have avoided that, and hopefully even found herself in heaven on the Judgment Day. But what about people who found repentance yesterday, or today? They wouldn’t have made it. They’d be in hell forever. Which is worse, although we don’t like to think about it, than suffering the way that child did.
The world will end when the last of those who will repent of their sins, repents. Then that’s it. Harvest time.
No flopping feet in heaven. God HAS brought an end to all suffering. The fulness of time just hasn’t come yet. We are all impatient but keep sinning anyway. And still God has mercy.
Maybe God wants you (and me) to do something about it.
This is stupid!
We live in a cursed fallen world due to the sin of man; quit blaming God.
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I have no trouble understanding, and accepting as rational, the argument that this type of suffering does not rule out the existence of an omnipotent, loving God.
What I don’t understand, or accept as rational, the notion that an God who is described as loving and merciful could torture billions of people forever and ever without end. Only a monster could do that.
The most beautiful people are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.”
But pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world. —C.S. Lewis
Sorry, so many words, but the paradox and doubts remain.
Just a couple of days ago, I watched a DVD called “Machine Gun Preacher” and at first thought it would be stupid... then it was interesting. It is a true story.
i am not a theologian. but do you really think God doesn’t feel pain? do you think Jesus felt pain on the cross? how much pain would one have to suffer in order to atone for the sins of the world. what kind of pain does one feel when a life’s work is spoiled before your very eyes? how does God feel, especially when He looks out upon satan’s ruin of His “very good” creation? how much pain do we feel for God when we look at the abominations and crimes that others (like atheists) are commiting against His creation.
pain, in my estimation, is a very great gift from God. imagine that we could feel absolutely no pain. what kind of creature would we be? we are so blessed, even in our suffering, to have been created in His image.
are you aware the title of your thread is also a book on the same subject by C.S.Lewis???You sound serious, so let me give you a serious answer as a computer programmer (who has his own problems with faith).
The FIRST thing you learn as a programmer new to a computer programming language is how to create “Hello World!”.
In other words, how do you print something back to a computer user.
The second thing you do as a (young) computer programmer is to change the tutorial to something like “Hello Phil!”
The third thing you do (again, as a young programmer) is learn about loops so that you can print out to the computer
“Phil is the greatest human being EVER” 100 times.
Then you understand God’s problem: because you are basically praising yourself (as a programmer) it’s meaningless. You can tell the computer to praise you a brazilian times, and it still means nothing because you told the computer to do it.
So what God did (and PLEASE, hard core believers of ANY denomination, don’t hate me - this isn’t theology, it’s philosophy) is go and create a bunch of universes, most of which were simply “Hello Worlds” where he only got back what he put in.
Then He created this universe in which evolved these curiously strange creatures which had free will. These creatures didn’t have to “praise God” because God programmed them to do it, they praised God because they CHOSE to!
The side effect of this “free will” thingy is that many of them chose to take a machete to others they didn’t like.
And God decided that those who chose to praise Him would have their suffering (which, in the grand scheme of things like the age of the universe is frankly an absurdly short period of time) redeemed upon death.
Is it the “best of all possible worlds?” Perhaps not. But it may be the best of world’s which are possible in which free will exists...
/end pontification...
Many atheists bring up the Holocaust as evidence that God does not exist.
“Why would a loving God have allowed such suffering and pain?”
But really look at the evidence.
Even after having half of all Jews exterminated, the Jewish people still existed.
And after almost 1,850 years they returned from exile and founded a Jewish state.
What about the 1,000 year Reich that slaughtered so many Jews?
All of their cities was smashed and in ruins by either American bombs or ground down by Soviet tank treads.
Germany was cut apart and it’s people sent into exile.
God might not have protected his chosen people at the time of their suffering and pain.
But God, in a most biblical manner, smote Zion’s enemies. Sending the enemies’ children wailing in mourning and shame for generations.
If there is a loving God, then why is it that ... ? You've heard that question, perhaps asked it yourself. No matter how you complete it, at its root lies the issue of pain. Does God order our suffering? Does he decree an abusive childhood, orchestrate a jet crash, steer a tornado through a community? Or did he simply wind up the world's mainspring and now is watching from a distance? In this Gold Medallion Award--winning book, Philip Yancey reveals a God who is neither capricious nor unconcerned. Using examples from the Bible and from his own experiences, Yancey looks at pain---physical, emotional, and spiritual---and helps us understand why we suffer. Where Is God When It Hurts? will speak to those for whom life sometimes just doesn't make sense. And it will help equip anyone who wants to reach out to someone in pain but just doesn't know what to say.
Sin
What if this story were, however; a passerby sees a child; running from a pond; with 'foot flapping'/blood flying; and then found out; that it was not a 'machete' - as he assumed - but an alligator; that had bitten off the child's foot? Or; his foot was ripped off; because he caught it, in a rock, as he tumbled down a hill?
We might ask; 'how could God allow it; but we would not wait; too long; for an answer. We would accept it, as a part of life. We might; on occasion; blame ourselves, for our misfortune.
Do think; pain and suffering; our first 'figure/ground' of life. We are always challenging the presence of 'suffering' in our world; but seldom do we ask; what our world would be, without it? Would Life's mystery be solved; or might we find life; still a mystery?
(Where might we be; without the sufferings of Moses; of Jesus? Christians are 'taught' - brought to - an understanding of God's love; through their visiting the sacrifice and sufferings of Jesus.)
* Without 'suffering'; how else to appreciate the 'Divine'; a Creator; the 'escape'; the reward; to a heavenly peace' - or return - save from a world; where there IS suffering.
For some; if nothing else; we come into the world; in a 'pain and suffering' (and hence; we so honor our parents); and we leave it by same. We need motivation; to come; and to leave. Suffering provides it.
If you think about it, the problem is one of time. There doesn't seem to be enough time in a human life to "deserve" the "punishment" some people have to endure. Especially concerning children who suffer.
The answer to this paradox, traditionally, across the globe, is karma and reincarnation.
The idea being that you're not your body - you're a soul, which God give a body, over and over and over again, unitl you get it right.
Upside, is this makes sense of all the apparently unfair duffering in the world, AND creates a situation where everyone, sooner or later, reaches heaven - which supports the idea of a God of infinite love who will not - ultimately - let any of His children fail.
Downside?
This theory undermines the authority of the Church, and the threat of permanent hell forever.
Many research sources support the idea that reincarnation was a part of the early Church, and that Jesus taught it: Reincarnation and the Bible.
On the other hand, eight hundred years ago the Catholic Church slaughtered a half-million people to eradicate the "heresy" of gnosticism, which included reincarnation, and to this day will stick it's chin out and assert that every single one of of those people deserved to die at the point of a sword because of their reincarnational beliefs (among other things).
Go ahead, research this - challenge a Catholic on gnostic reincarnation, and thank God the Constitution prevents them from being in charge of what happens to you.
So decide for yourself.
Without suffering and death, our thoughts would never have to become focused on what God means to us and whether we will embrace him.