The problem of pain.

[LouAvul]

I saw a vid of children butchered by rival african tribes. One child was fleeing with her foot flopping on a broken bone.

In a book called "Have Atheists Proved There Is No God", the author discusses the problem of pain and the existence of God.

In light of innocents suffering, how would you explain this paradox? Free will? The fall of man?

[PhilosopherStone1000]

You sound serious, so let me give you a serious answer as a computer programmer (who has his own problems with faith).

The FIRST thing you learn as a programmer new to a computer programming language is how to create “Hello World!”.

In other words, how do you print something back to a computer user.

The second thing you do as a (young) computer programmer is to change the tutorial to something like “Hello Phil!”

The third thing you do (again, as a young programmer) is learn about loops so that you can print out to the computer
“Phil is the greatest human being EVER” 100 times.

Then you understand God’s problem: because you are basically praising yourself (as a programmer) it’s meaningless. You can tell the computer to praise you a brazilian times, and it still means nothing because you told the computer to do it.

So what God did (and PLEASE, hard core believers of ANY denomination, don’t hate me - this isn’t theology, it’s philosophy) is go and create a bunch of universes, most of which were simply “Hello Worlds” where he only got back what he put in.

Then He created this universe in which evolved these curiously strange creatures which had free will. These creatures didn’t have to “praise God” because God programmed them to do it, they praised God because they CHOSE to!

The side effect of this “free will” thingy is that many of them chose to take a machete to others they didn’t like.

And God decided that those who chose to praise Him would have their suffering (which, in the grand scheme of things like the age of the universe is frankly an absurdly short period of time) redeemed upon death.

Is it the “best of all possible worlds?” Perhaps not. But it may be the best of world’s which are possible in which free will exists...

/end pontification...

[Mortrey]

WHEW! Beautiful!

God is not to blame for pain inflicted—God loves his children, but this earth age is of satan (remember how satan tempted Jesus when He fasted in the desert for 40 days? IF Christ would only worship satan, satan would give Him all He could see in the distance. And, Christ said, “Get behind me, satan” as a lesson to his children on how to deal with the devil.)

This earth age is a test for us. Perhaps the child will be a witness against the anti-christ when he arrives, having withstood pain inflicted by him on one of God’s children and becoming stronger for the experience of it?

Ever considered how wonderfully impressive and strong a witness the disabled are that revere God in their everyday lives? They have an effect on those around them that average Joes don’t have.

[Persevero]

“I got saved last week. It’s thanks to Freepers and how calm and nice (MOST) of them are changed my atheist tendancies,”

Wow, what an incredible post! I am overjoyed for you.

I hope you find a good church to grow and serve in. God be praised.

[Politicalmom]

God won’t be torturing anyone. He won’t force anyone to accept the free gift of salvation offered through His Son. They are CHOOSING to pass eternity in torment.

[PanzerKardinal]

Many atheists bring up the Holocaust as evidence that God does not exist.

“Why would a loving God have allowed such suffering and pain?”

But really look at the evidence.

Even after having half of all Jews exterminated, the Jewish people still existed.

And after almost 1,850 years they returned from exile and founded a Jewish state.

What about the 1,000 year Reich that slaughtered so many Jews?

All of their cities was smashed and in ruins by either American bombs or ground down by Soviet tank treads.

Germany was cut apart and it’s people sent into exile.

God might not have protected his chosen people at the time of their suffering and pain.

But God, in a most biblical manner, smote Zion’s enemies. Sending the enemies’ children wailing in mourning and shame for generations.

[arasina]

I highly recommend this book:

If there is a loving God, then why is it that ... ? You've heard that question, perhaps asked it yourself. No matter how you complete it, at its root lies the issue of pain. Does God order our suffering? Does he decree an abusive childhood, orchestrate a jet crash, steer a tornado through a community? Or did he simply wind up the world's mainspring and now is watching from a distance? In this Gold Medallion Award--winning book, Philip Yancey reveals a God who is neither capricious nor unconcerned. Using examples from the Bible and from his own experiences, Yancey looks at pain---physical, emotional, and spiritual---and helps us understand why we suffer. Where Is God When It Hurts? will speak to those for whom life sometimes just doesn't make sense. And it will help equip anyone who wants to reach out to someone in pain but just doesn't know what to say.

[Mortrey]

Agreed.
And all that have not been given the chance to learn in this earth age, will be given another opportunity in the Lord’s Day. If, during that time, their arrogance remains, they, indeed, will CHOOSE to be the product of their own arrogance.

Personally, I wonder why God loves us at all. But, I’m grateful He does and gives us the choice to love Him back.

[Persevero]

“But, how do we explain miscarriage?”

I hesitate to over-explain, as “the secret things belong to God.” Also the loss of a child is so hideous, it seems almost impossible to address it without causing more pain.

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.” Deuteronomy 29:29.

That said, we can say it was, overall, at the end of the world, for good. Even though death itself is a curse and horrible, all things still work together for good.

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28

Everything else is speculative. For instance, perhaps that child just had the experience of being comfortable, sleeping, and then waking up in the presence of Jesus. Whereas if He had taken her, she’d have had painful digestive problems and seen ugly fights and suffered depression and I don’t know what. I speculate.

We have to trust that God knows best. Easier to say than to do. We do all we can to bear and raise our children. If we’ve done what we can and God takes them, we must trust Him. Is there any other option?

“Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither:

the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.” (Job 1:20-22)

[Persevero]

“Ever considered how wonderfully impressive and strong a witness the disabled are that revere God in their everyday lives? They have an effect on those around them that average Joes don’t have.”

Probably like you, I have noticed that the disabled often bring out the best in some of the most unlikely people. I see someone I know is a jerk speak kindly, say, to a retarded kid, and I think, there is hope for mankind yet. I hold back my considerable impatience when trapped behind a doddering lady in the supermarket, and I realize I have a long way to go. Etc.

[Lucas McCain]

“God won’t be torturing anyone. He won’t force anyone to accept the free gift of salvation offered through His Son. They are CHOOSING to pass eternity in torment.”

---

Okay, I choose to not accept the free gift of salvation offered through His Son.

I also choose to not be tortured forever. Does that work?

I understood the Bible to teach that if I fail to “accept the free gift of salvation offered through His Son,” then God will send me to hell to burn forever and ever. Not just waterboarding, or bamboo chutes under the finger nails. But everlasting fire. Did I miss something?

I have no problem with people who choose to believe as you do. Heck, I devoutly believed it myself for 30 years. But I really wish someone would present a rational, reasonable argument that permits an infinitely loving and merciful God to force/allow the vast majority of humans who have ever lived to suffer agonizing pain forever. Under those circumstances, the word mercy has no meaning.

[Mortrey]

Who can possibly know your pain besides other parents who are tested and God?

My mother also had a miscarriage; a brother I will not know until (with God’s grace) I see him in Heaven.

Some may have been so perfect in the first earth age, that they merely needed to be born of woman in this age to enter Heaven and be with their Creator. They didn’t need testing...they were tested previously and found PERFECT.

[LouAvul]

I'm sorry you're offended. I'm not blaming anyone. It's a theological exercise. What do you think theologians do?

I was a professional theologian for thirty years and nobody, and I mean nobody, has successfully solved this conundrum.

I'm just curious as to Freeper's perspectives. Ok? Please don't take offense.

[Politicalmom]

God isn’t sending anyone anywhere. It isn’t a boat captain’s fault if he tries to rescue people, they refuse to climb aboard the boat, and then drown. He tried to help.

[OneWingedShark]

Personally, I wonder why God loves us at all. But, I’m grateful He does and gives us the choice to love Him back.

Indeed and Amen.

[ransomnote]

I have said before, I love and get angry at God.

If one of my kids was hurting one of my other kids, they’d PAY.

Why is it not so with us?
___________________________________________________

I think that’s part of an argument I had with God (why haven’t I won any of those yet?)

That particular argument sputtered to a confused halt on my part when God reminded me that he allowed his only begotten son to be tortured and killed by ‘us’ in order to save us. He doesn’t plan to make ME pay for it even though it is hard to conceive of a crime worse than torturing Love to death on a cross.

I was then reminded that He does not view this earth in its fallen state to be our true home and that he looks forward to the day when He will dry every tear and there will be no more pain. EVIL WILL BE JUDGED and woe to those who hurt the little of His...etc.

Verses about how those who suffer will be blessed in Heaven and the ones that indicate we probably couldn’t understand the answer to this question if he spoke it (JOB basically can’t answer a series of questions from God and concedes that he probably wouldn’t even understand the words the Almighty would use if he were to tell Job the reason why he suffered so).

But personally, one of the more satisfying portions of that argument centered around God’s wrath. One of the prophets is given a glimpse of heaven and says God sits enthroned within a circle of crackling fire (His wrath)and while I used to dislike that image, it’s the one I think of when I hear of children being abused, people being tortured...God is enraged by the abuse far more than I am.

Oh well, I don’t know if my argument with Him overlapped with your post sufficiently but I thought I would post some of it in case it did.

[Mortrey]

Lucas, you say you devoutly believed for 30 years.

Not to be too personal, but, were you, by any chance, brought up in a belief (denomination) that did not teach scripture rabidly?

I, myself, was brought up in a “denomination” that gave sermons but did NOT teach the Bible chapter and verse and I fell away-—until just recently.

I now feel that there are not enough hours in the day to “catch up” on all the instruction in the Bible most religious leaders are at fault for not teaching.

God, Himself, found fault with 5 out of 7 churches in Revelations 2:1-19. The ones He found acceptable were Smyrna and Philadelphia. Although I am still in the process of “catching up”, I think they are the churches that TEACH FROM the word of God—the Bible, as told to his disciples-—and NOT the ones that put man’s traditions ahead of His word.

[Lucas McCain]

“God isn’t sending anyone anywhere. It isn’t a boat captain’s fault if he tries to rescue people, they refuse to climb aboard the boat, and then drown. He tried to help.”

With all due respect, your analogy is really stupid. A boat captain is not omnipotent. God created hell, according to the Bible, and He is the Judge. I will never choose to burn in hell. If I end up there, it will be because God, the judge, decided I should be there.

Try again.

[Mortrey]

“...it is hard to conceive of a crime worse than torturing Love to death on a cross.”

Thank you for this post. No one can convince me that God does not realize ABOVE and BEYOND our experience with suffering.
And yet, He forgives us.

[Lucas McCain]

I have a bachelor’s degree in Bible from a Christian university associated with a conservative fellowship that strongly believes in the Bible only.

[astratt7]

Sin