Posted on 07/02/2012 6:30:14 AM PDT by Cronos
I want to thank Archbishop William E. Lori for reminding me once again why I'm an ex-Catholic ("Fight for freedom," June 27). With the so-called "Fortnight for Freedom," the church leadership is deliberately and cynically using a mixture of patriotism and religion in a blatant and manipulative attempt to influence the outcome of the upcoming elections.
I can't seem to recall any recent news about Catholic churches being bombed in the United States or attempts to bar American Catholics from attending mass. I do know that the Catholic Church has been using its "religious freedom" for decades to aid and abet child abusers, to recently attack nuns in the United States who are at the forefront of what used to be one of the church's primary missions to aid and comfort the poor and needy, and that the American church has over the past few decades formed an alliance with some of the most strident and politically active right-wing religious groups in the U.S. Archbishop Lori even received an award in May from a coalition of some of those groups.
I am proud to be an American, and I am a strong supporter of the Bill of Rights. I support freedom of religion, and I support freedom from religion. And, at this moment in time, I am also very proud and happy to be an ex-Catholic.
Sandy Covahey, Baltimore
(Excerpt) Read more at baltimoresun.com ...
Martin Luther was not a holy man,
“It takes one to know one.”
Martin Luther was not a holy man, who would base their faith, their salvation on his heresies?
“Watch it now - judging a man because of Rome’s contempt for Luther is NOT wise! God used Luther to prevent the gates of hell from coming against His Church! And hell is mad every since!!”
~ ~ ~
Hey, not very loving, the personal cut. God respects free
will, Luther chose to what he did. Time to post his
quotes. The Remnant, God put you in this time...is Roman Catholic. Change your heart about the Eucharist.
No time for a tome, but I wish to concur with Daniel and metmom that stpio has presented himself as RC, and that your weak inference re sourpuss, while in court would make for an interesting three minute diversion during direct examination, would doubtless be set aside in mere moments during cross, and should not be given any weight whatsoever.
As for the prophecies, the one he referred me to was Kevin Barrett, who is loosely affiliated with the Open Heaven group, which in turn appears to be affiliated with the Latter Rain movement, which groups are clearly operating on the premise of an open canon as well as Prima Dreams and Visions, definitely not within the Sola Scriptura camp.
Beyond that, I don’t know what to say. If you disown him as RC based on his eschatology, I suppose it would be fair to ask what specific edict of your majesterium he has breached, and by what majesterium-recognized process you are personally empowered to disown him as RC.
Peace,
SR
~ ~ ~
How can you write “peace” and slam me, anyone? Be nice.
Ooooh pride, there are many lawyers in Hell because their intellect became their God. That’s not very smart.
Do you forget, God chooses His prophets, the most unlikely
people. You reject Kevin Barrett because Our Lord simply states to him three Protestant heresies are false, Our Lord called them lies. Jesus is preparing you all to accept the true faith, Roman Catholicism.
You stubbornly stick with Luther and his “Faith Alone.”
Jesus shows in two short sentences “Faith Alone” is
false.
Incapable of change, it’s going to take the grace of God
at the time of the Great Warning. I wish you would now.
One more time...
Protestant ministers convert when they read the Church Fathers, their quotes and writings....a help. Some of them
are Apostolic Fathers.
~ ~ ~
Kevin’s website: http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
an excerpt fro the April 1, 2012 message:
Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that do the will of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the FALSE shepherds and prophets. They speak of how you each are already cleansed and adorned in righteousness simply by your BELIEF on My name. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is fulfilled by your obedience to My voice. IT IS NOT IMPUTED TO YOU BY A ONE-TIME CONFESSION OF MY NAME. Oh, My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves. Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. They want to be told all is well and that they shall PROSPER if they simply believe on My name and My promises. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.
Will this help our brothers and sisters in Christ?
Sharing a quote from a man who as a child knew John the Apostle. He was Third Bishop of Antioch. Proof, there is a hierarchy, from the start.
Look what Ignatius states about the Eucharist and those
who disbelieve.
St. Ignatius of Antioch (110AD):
“[heretics] They abstain from Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus of our Savior Jesus Christ…” (Letter to Smyrnaeans 6,2)
“How can you write “peace” and slam me, anyone? Be nice.”
It’s true I care nothing for the false prophets you like to push at me and the others, but if you will go back and reread my previous post very carefully, you will see I was agreeing with and defending your claim that you really are RC as you say you are. I would have thought you would have liked that. Go figure. I think you are a well-intended person, and I wish you no harm, and when I wish you peace, please please know that I mean it most sincerely.
Peace,
SR
I'm content with the original source:
"Ton arton hêmôn ton epiousion" (Give us this day our supersubstantial bread) - Matthew 6:11
NL, Hi. We have discussed your theory of “supersubstantial” bread before. I do not find your lexical approach convincing. Here is a modified version of my previous comments, to which I do not recall a response from you:
As you pointed out, epiousion is a word that only occurs in the context of the bread petition of the Lord’s Prayer. But if you’re a lexicographer, that’s not a good thing, that’s a bad thing. A one-off word (aka “hapax legomenon”) is extraordinarily difficult to translate. The context of a broader literature is completely missing, and the ordinary apparatus for deriving a meaning must be replaced with a process that analyzes the components of the word in hopes of finding some combination of templates that when taken together in context make sense.
There are a number of reasonable theories concerning the meaning of epiousion. One view sees in epiousion a term of measurement, as in the daily ration of bread: See http://www.metrum.org/measures/epiousios.htm
The foregoing view also has support as a typical form of expression among the Jews of that day. From Gill we have the following Talmudic references:
“The necessities of thy people are great, and their knowledge short; let it be thy good will and pleasure, O Lord, our God, that thou wouldst give to everyone [hebrew here], “what is sufficient for his sustenance”, and to every one’s body what it wants.’’
“Says R. Jose (w), all the children of faith seek “every day” [hebrew here], “to ask their food” of the Lord, and to pray a prayer for it.’’
Note: Under this reading, “sufficient” corresponds to “epi” used as a measure, and “sustenance” derives from substance which derives from being, here “ousia.”
Another view recognizes that the idea of “eating” messiah was already active in Talmudic sources, and references our consuming his doctrine, his righteousness, and so forth:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/lightfoot-new-testament/john/6.html?p=3
A particularly strong view is that epiousion was a specialized modification of “daily” that carried the additional idea of the arrival of the new day. This works very well with the re-division of the adjective into ep’-iosion, which has multiple testimonies in participial form elsewhere in Scripture, which would remove the cloud of hapax legomenon, and apparently is drawing some attention among scholars:
http://www.rededicate.org/archives/UploadMarriage/fourthpetitionLP.html
Occam‘s razor applies. The word as it appears simply does not require Trent’s transubstantiation, nor the anathema that goes with it, to explain it, but rather ordinary uses of the word explain it quite well. Eisogesis is the hermeneutic of reading into a text what is not there by necessity of the words actually used. Furthermore, when the proposed extraordinary meaning won’t originate until 900 years (at best) after the text was written, it is also anachronistic, i.e., dislocated in time. Taking Aquinas’ inversion of Aritstotle’s substance and accidence and reading that back into a hapax legomenon is therefore anachronistic eisogesis, and not worthy of consideration in understanding Matthew 6:11.
Peace,
SR
Luther chose to what he did
YES, TO OBEY GOD/HIS WORD.
God put you in this time...is Roman Catholic
God took me OUT of Catholicism as I belong to HIM.
There is plenty of broader literature. I can cite you numerous examples of the Early Church Fathers affirming their belief that the Eucharist is the Real Body and Blood of Jesus beginning in the first century and continuing unbroken until today. These include the Didache (c 90-150 A.D.), St. Clement of Rome, also known as Pope Clement I (d. 99 A.D.) , St. Justin Martyr (100 - 165 A.D.), St. Clement of Alxandria (150-216 A.D.), Tertullian (160 – 225 A.D.), St. Hippolytus of Rome (170 – 235 A.D.) Origen (185 – 254 A.D.) , St. Irenaeus (unknown – 202 A.D), St. Cyprian of Carthage (c 250 A.D.), St, Athanasius of Alexandria (296 – 373 A.D.), St. Hilary of Poitiers (300 – 368 A.D.), St. Ephrem of Syria (306 – 373 A.D.), St Cyril of Jerusalem (313 – 386 A. D.), St. Basil of Caesarea (329 – 379 A.D.), St. Ambrose of Milan (330-397 A.D.) , St. Gregory of Nyssa (335 – 395 A.D.) , St. Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430 A.D.), and the Council of Ephesus 431 A.D.). I can provide numerous examples from these as well as numerous other Fathers. In this broader context I will continue to interpret this “hapax legomenon” in the context of Church Tradition.
Peace be with you
How can you write “peace” and slam me, anyone? Be nice.
“It’s true I care nothing for the false prophets you like to push at me and the others, but if you will go back and reread my previous post very carefully, you will see I was agreeing with and defending your claim that you really are RC as you say you are. I would have thought you would have liked that. Go figure. I think you are a well-intended person, and I wish you no harm, and when I wish you peace, please please know that I mean it most sincerely.”
~ ~ ~
I haven’t “pushed” anything at you, this is a discussion forum. Thanks, it’s true the fact I AM Roman Catholic.
SR, I pointed out to you and other non-Catholic Christians here on the forum a current Protestant prophet and you call him a false prophet~! It must be you don’t like what Our Lord said to Kevin Barrett? A nine year old could understand Jesus’ words in that ONE paragraph excerpt of the message.
Your long posts are fine while you ignore a simple paragraph. Jesus is God, He can say it perfectly and briefly. “Faith Alone” is false, OSAS is not true, John 3:16 does not save you, accepting Jesus into your heart one time as your personal Lord and Savior does not save you and Joel Osteen’s “prosperity gospel” is false.
The “altar call”, the “accepting Jesus Christ into your heart prayer” can be a moment of conversion which is good but it does not save you. Read Our Lord’s words again or if you haven’t, read them for the first time.
Jesus’ is trying to reach you, all non-Catholic Christians.
blessings,
4/1/12
message to Kevin Barrett
Let Me Take You Through the Fires of Purification
Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that DO THE WILL of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the FALSE shepherds and prophets. THEY SPEAK OF HOW YOU EACH ARE ALREADY CLEANSED AND ADORNED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS SIMPLY BY YOUR BELIEF ON MY NAME. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who does righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is FULFILLED BY YOUR OBEDIENCE to My voice. IT IS NOT IMPUTED TO YOU BY A ONE-TIME CONFESSION OF MY NAME. Oh My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves. Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. They want to be told all is well and that they shall PROSPER if they SIMPLY BELIEVE ON MY NAME and My PROMISES. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.
And JESUS is the Rhema.
“In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word [logos] was with God, and the Word [logos] was God” (John 1:1).
“The seed is the Word [logos] of God” (Luke 8:11).
“For the Word [logos] of God is quick, and powerful” (Hebrews 4:12).
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word [logos] of God, which liveth and abideth forever” (I Peter 1:23).
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by The Word [rhema] of God” (Romans 10:17).
“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word [rhema] of God” (Ephesians 6:17).
“Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy Word [rhema] I will let down the net” (Luke 5:5).
“Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy Word [rhema]” (Luke 1:38).
“Now let thou thy servant depart in peace, according to the Word [rhema]” (Luke 2:29). Simeon speaking what God told him.
“The Word [rhema] of God came unto John” (Luke 3:2).
Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice” (Matthew 26:75). Peter remembered the Word (rhema) JESUS spoke.
The WORD is to be planted ... "I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow" "So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but ONLY God, who makes things grow. Corinthians 3:6,7.
You just pushed your false prophet at me again, while denying you are doing it. I’m sorry you think he’s like me, or has anything to say to me. When you stop assaulting me with him, we may engage in more productive conversation about those other topics. Until then, all you are doing is activating my “flee from false prophets” alarm.
Peace,
SR
NL, I’ve seen a number of patristic quotes re the eucharist, and each and every one I have seen so far, at least in the ante-Nicene period, is completely compatible with a spiritual presence rather than the transubstantiated corporeal presence of Aquinas under the inverted categories of Aristotle. If you want to make a case for transubstantiation in Matt 6:11, fine, do that. But it has to be unequivocal, and that I haven’t seen yet, not even in the fathers.
But getting back to epiousion, the lexical evidence for a word in the “broader literature” can only be the actual word itself, and it must be contemporaneous (private letters, shopping lists, legal documents, etc. of the same period or earlier), not later patristic speculations over a known hapax. Nothing else counts if you’re doing the raw lexicography. Finding the same word in different conjugations would also help, but nothing is as good as seeing the exact word in question in several different external contexts.
So, as long as you assert that epiousion is a hapax, you have precluded yourself from introducing even one scintilla of evidence from alternative contexts, as you have already conceded they do not exist for this particular, exact word.
Peace,
SR
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1
Now, if you want to ask me what my beliefs are about the Trinity, do it now. Don't search through threads looking for times when I didn't make a comment and ignore all the time I DID make comments. All you're doing is trying to throw those "spit wads" at me because I'm not agreeing with you or your peeps HERE and you are dragging disputes across threads which is ALSO not a good thing. You didn't even have the courage to ping this mysterious Freeper to whom you refer as the "non-trinitarian" so he can defend himself, but I will.
If you haven't "seen" anyone say anything to non-trinitarians who post their objections to the Trinity, then I suggest it's simply because you failed to read them, you ignored them or you only want to grasp at straws to accuse those who are not in your "camp" as being losers. Spit wads...that's ALL they are!
Also do not bring arguments from one thread to another.
“Stpio seems oblivious to the fact that spirit-filled Christians OBEY GOD and test everything and it is proven useless to try to convince them what we TESTED to be false is false. After all, what would a natural man know what TRUTH is as they are knee deep in man-made teachings.”
~ ~ ~
Hi, explain,
God the Holy Spirit told you the prophecy given Protestant
Kevin Barrett is false?
You didn’t “test” anything, there was no rebuttal, no
reasons why the words from Our Lord to Kevin Barrett are false, all non-Catholics can do is say they are false.. Prove it, take the paragraph in the message to Kevin Barrett apart. Some at FR are very good at sentence by sentence, do it in this case.
You don’t want to change on any of the “lies” as Our Lord
calls them. Protestants will not let go of “Faith alone”,
stubborn to the end on this heresy. Other falsehoods
come from “Faith Alone”, it’s so sad.
And it was noticed, there was no reply to James 2:24.
I thought Scripture is inerrant? James 2:24 shows
Martin Luther’s “Faith Alone” is false (a lie).
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
You just pushed your false prophet at me again, while denying you are doing it. I’m sorry you think he’s like me, or has anything to say to me. When you stop assaulting me with him, we may engage in more productive conversation about those other topics. Until then, all you are doing is activating my “flee from false prophets” alarm.
Peace,
SR
~ ~ ~
Stubbborn.....ohhhh. Thanks though, the shortest reply you’ve ever posted dear SR. How come you won’t discuss the paragraph, Jesus’ words to Kevin Barrett as I just asked in my last post?
“Spiritual babies” until the end. Catholics give proof Scripturally and in prophecy and non-Catholics go somewhere
else, either ignore or shout false prophet. It’s you
all’s prophet for Heaven’s sake~!!
Another no reply, the quote of St. Ignatius about the
Eucharist in 110 A.D. And what of all the men, some taught by the Apostles that Natural Law shared and other Catholics here have posted?
How come this doesn’t register with anyone? Many minsters
in Protestantism have/are converting to the faith because they read the beliefs of the first Christians. I am sincerely asking.
If I was given the choice, bread and wine (sometimes, juice and crackers) OR Jesus Christ Himself in the consecrated host, I would run to the faith. MO, it’s fine RCIA but instruction from a priest is the best, especially a traditional priest who offers the Tridentine Mass. Yes,
there are very holy priests who offer the New Mass.
Sharing a quote from a man who as a child knew John the Apostle.”
“I’m content with the original source:”
“Ton arton hêmôn ton epiousion” (Give us this day our supersubstantial bread) - Matthew 6:11
~ ~ ~
Amen
The Eucharist sanctifies, that is why everyone needs the
“bread from Heaven”, Christ Himself.
you have a way with words NL,
The words of a false prophet are not from Jesus. The only words of Jesus we have are in Scripture and Kevin Barrett’s latter rain ramblings are not in the canon last I checked. Abstain from your false prophets and we can talk. Or if you must have your false prophet, I must kindly ask you to leave me out of it. I desire no part of the judgment that is coming against the false prophets of our time.
Peace,
SR
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