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To: roamer_1
"Therefore, I find it insufficient AS EVIDENCE bolstering the concept of Eucharist."

Hence the error of Protestantism. When you place your limited capabilities and capacity to reason as the governing authority over what is and is not scriptural you place yourself above faith.

The Church teaches that faith is our response to God's call. Responding in faith requires we trust in the authority of God as the cause of our belief. As Blessed John Henry Newman said; “Faith is not a conclusion from premises, but an act of the will following on the conviction that to believe is a duty”. Intellect, education, and reason can assist, but they cannot substitute for faith. We ultimately must choose to believe.

Catholics believe that being born again is not an event as is proclaimed by many Evangelical and Protestant denomination, but for many a life long process we call Conversion. Conversion is not always easy or rapid. It can often includes set backs based upon difficulties and doubts that challenge our faith. It is only when we confront these difficulties and doubts with faith can we progress.

Even when counter to reason, we must reconcile what the experts call cognitive dissonance. Catholicism requires that, in faith, we hold a number of opposing ideas at the same time; God and Man, Mother and Virgin, Sacrament and Sacrifice, Sinner and Saint, death and eternal life, mystery and reason, the secular and the spiritual, faith and understanding, rationalism and fideism, free will and submission. Without Faith these contradictions form an absurdity. For too many these absurdities form an obstacle to conversion remain absurdities until we superimpose Jesus upon them.

Saint Paul tells us in his epistles that the Cross was seen as a scandal to the Jews and as folly to the Greeks. It was an insult and repulsive to the Romans. To Archbishop Fulton Sheen the cross was an absurdity. “It is the vertical symbol of life contradicted by the horizontal symbol of death.” The Archbishop then completed his thought with the essence of Catholicism when he went on to say; “It is absurd until Jesus is superimposed upon it.”

Revealed truth is never counter to reason because the authority is God himself who reveals it and He can neither deceive nor be deceived. He is both author and authority. Therefore, Faith is not opposed to reason but is required by reason. Faith is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very Word of God who is Truth. No matter the degree to which Revealed Truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."

CCC164 - Now, however, "we walk by faith, not by sight"; we perceive God as "in a mirror, dimly" and only "in part". Even though enlightened by him in whom it believes, faith is often lived in darkness and can be put to the test. The world we live in often seems very far from the one promised us by faith. Our experiences of evil and suffering, injustice and death, seem to contradict the Good News; they can shake our faith and become a temptation against it.

814 posted on 05/30/2012 12:53:19 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law

It’s no wonder Catholics aren’t sure of their salvation.


823 posted on 05/30/2012 2:05:16 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Natural Law
Hence the error of Protestantism. When you place your limited capabilities and capacity to reason as the governing authority over what is and is not scriptural you place yourself above faith.

I see that differently, of course - I see that the reliance upon any religious leadership has inevitably lead to corruption. Every organization that has gained that power (to include your own, IMHO) has failed miserably to refrain from adding on 'traditions', which, btw, is the main thing Yeshua remonstrated (to be kind) the religious leaders of His day about. The governing authority MUST in the end, be the written Word. Every time there has been a 'reset', as it were, the plan has always been 'back to the basics'. Don't you think there might be a reason for that?

The Church teaches that faith is our response to God's call. Responding in faith requires we trust in the authority of God as the cause of our belief. As Blessed John Henry Newman said; “Faith is not a conclusion from premises, but an act of the will following on the conviction that to believe is a duty”. Intellect, education, and reason can assist, but they cannot substitute for faith. We ultimately must choose to believe.

We are not far apart in this - except that the things I must take on faith are a smaller subset, in line with the written Word, and that the authority of YHWH is left with YHWH, where it belongs. And that even when my own will leads me far astray, Yeshua will always come looking for His lost lamb and in spite of my ignorant wandering, He will lead me back to the fold. There are times that He has used His staff to put me on the right path... and even times where He has picked me up and carried me back to where I belong. That is a blessed assurance.

Catholics believe that being born again is not an event as is proclaimed by many Evangelical and Protestant denomination, but for many a life long process we call Conversion. Conversion is not always easy or rapid. It can often includes set backs based upon difficulties and doubts that challenge our faith. It is only when we confront these difficulties and doubts with faith can we progress.

Ahh, it seems that OSAS is the basis of your ire, not the term 'born again'.

Do you suppose that Born Again Christians do not have such setbacks? As a charismatic, perhaps even to another dimension, I have felt nearly abandoned - torn to pieces - and my faith reduced to a guttering pilot light. it is during such times, FRiend, that OSAS has born it's fruit for me, and sustained me against all things perilous.

I do have one thing to cling to as things get dim: That YHWH turns all things to good for those that love Him, and regardless of how it looks, or how it feels, I have a sure promise that I will not be discarded, and that no one can take me out of Yeshua's hand. When all else fails, even my own faith, that has been the single handhold left for me to cling to - And YHWH has always, in His time, turned it around in spite of me and my feeble abilities. And that is a priceless treasure. Praise YHWH! He is faithful and true!

Even when counter to reason, we must reconcile what the experts call cognitive dissonance. Catholicism requires that, in faith, we hold a number of opposing ideas at the same time; God and Man, Mother and Virgin, Sacrament and Sacrifice, Sinner and Saint, death and eternal life, mystery and reason, the secular and the spiritual, faith and understanding, rationalism and fideism, free will and submission. Without Faith these contradictions form an absurdity. For too many these absurdities form an obstacle to conversion remain absurdities until we superimpose Jesus upon them.

Again, for me it has been different: As things prove to be an absurdity (according to the Word), they are readily discarded. There is nothing true except the Word of YHWH, and in that, AS THAT, the promise of Yeshua. All else will pass away, so why bother holding on to it? There is enough conundrum in the pages of the Bible to keep me busy - in awe and fear and trembling - for my whole lifetime. Why bolt on MORE, especially when the 'more' is absurd?

Saint Paul tells us in his epistles that the Cross was seen as a scandal to the Jews and as folly to the Greeks. It was an insult and repulsive to the Romans. [...]

And how is the empty cross of Protestantism viewed, exactly?

Revealed truth is never counter to reason because the authority is God himself who reveals it and He can neither deceive nor be deceived. He is both author and authority. Therefore, Faith is not opposed to reason but is required by reason. Faith is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very Word of God who is Truth. No matter the degree to which Revealed Truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."

But then, how can those absurdities you were talking about up-post be validated? The Truth has already been revealed.

Thanks for your well thought-out reply.

924 posted on 05/31/2012 10:09:27 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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