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The hidden exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants
NCR ^ | Apr. 18, 2011 | Thomas Reese

Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....

The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.

We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.

While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.

The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.

Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.

Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.

Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.

One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.

Spiritual needs

The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.

In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.

Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.

The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.

People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.

Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.

Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.

Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.

Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.

Becoming Protestant

If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.

Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.

Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.

Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).

What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.

Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.

Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.

Lessons from the data

There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.

First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.

While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.

Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.

The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.

Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.

Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.

The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; bleedingmembers; catholic
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To: stpio
I should say first, DO NOT die in mortal sin.

I have already died to sin.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 7:6 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 7:17-20 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Romans 8:1-8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

981 posted on 06/01/2012 7:20:11 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: daniel1212

In summation: We don’t need to beat ourselves over sins that have been forgiven.


982 posted on 06/01/2012 7:32:35 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: bkaycee

John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

“John 6:55 is the metaphor.”

~ ~ ~

Eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) -John 6:55- is a symbol, a metaphor for whoever believes (faith alone) in Christ -John 6:40-?


983 posted on 06/01/2012 7:59:36 PM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio
Eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) -John 6:55- is a symbol, a metaphor for whoever believes (faith alone) in Christ -John 6:40-?
Yes, The reality is belief (Faith, Trust) in Christ's substitutionary atonement and resurrection is how we appropriate God's salvation.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Acts 16:30 Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

Romans 4:3 “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

984 posted on 06/01/2012 8:43:45 PM PDT by bkaycee
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To: metmom
I think the enemy of our souls just so delights in getting us so bound up in fear of failure in our faith that we live a life of bondage and fear instead of the joy and freedom and confidence we have in our relationship with Christ. The last thing he wants is joyful, effective, fruitful believers who love and trust their God. Sealed with the promised Holy Spirit until the day of redemption is sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Transferred from the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of the Son He loves is transferred from the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of the Son He loves. It's a done deal and there's tremendous peace and security in knowing that God accepts us as we are and will not reject us based on OUR abilities and efforts.

You are totally right. If God did not even spare His own son, Jesus Christ, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall he not also FREELY give us all things (Rom. 8:32)? And those "all things" most certainly include the power to overcome whatever trials or tribulations that come our way.

Of course Satan wants us to feel defeated and he sure gets a lot of help from those "religious" people out there! He gets them to feel all smug and pious and holy and they look down their noses at all the "great unwashed" who don't meet their standards and then he kills two birds with one stone - gets the "religious" people to sin through pride and those they judge to be defeated and give up.

That is why the study of Scripture is so important to the Christian - it puts things in perspective (God's). If we did not know what the Bible said about salvation and we just relied upon our church leaders to explain it all, we maybe would STILL be lost. Just as Hebrews 12 talks about being disciplined by our Father in heaven, it is a sign that we are His when we ARE chastened - and we ALL need it. Paul said:

    And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

      “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

    Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined — and everyone undergoes discipline — then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

    Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. (Hebrews 12:5-12)


985 posted on 06/01/2012 9:09:10 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: bkaycee

stpio:
Eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) -John 6:55- is a symbol, a metaphor for whoever believes (faith alone) in Christ -John 6:40-?

“Yes, The reality is belief (Faith, Trust) in Christ’s SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT and resurrection is how we appropriate God’s salvation.”

~ ~ ~
You didn’t paste it above. This time you used “substitutionary atonement.” What happened to your word metaphor? Are you stating, eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) are a symbol, a metophor for believing in (faith alone) Christ, that is what saves you? How do you figure? Jesus’ death on the Cross was real,
doesn’t it matter?

Oh, that Luther, he can apply Sola Fide to everything.


986 posted on 06/01/2012 9:25:43 PM PDT by stpio
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To: count-your-change; metmom
in every instance Paul spoke of faith there in Hebrews 11 he showed it was a faith demonstrated by action and that is how our faith is expressed, by the kind of life we live, by our obedience to God as James made clear. An inactive faith is dead. It's not a matter of earning or deserving but producing fruitage in obedience to Christ's commandments. (John 15: 1-10) Otherwise those branches would be removed from the vine and destroyed. They would have lost their salvation.

I disagree. Yes, Hebrews 11 speaks of the "stalwarts" of the faith and the only way WE can know about their faith was in their deeds. But God looks on the heart. I contend that a person who genuinely receives Jesus Christ as Savior and believes in Him, WILL have a faith that is demonstrated by their actions. How can it not? The very Spirit of God indwells us, our old sin nature no longer rules us and our new spirit nature is empowered to live in holiness. Granted, some people take longer than others to get there, but we will all be conformed, ARE being conformed, to the image of Christ and God does NOT let up - EVER.

A person who says they have faith will eventually show it to others by their life - it will be changed - and those who do not are demonstrating that their faith is not genuine. But it STILL does not mean that our works save us - they just don't - that is what grace means. We are sinners saved by grace, but we are STILL in our carnal, mortal, bodies. The more we live for Christ, the closer we get to the ideal God has for us, the better example we are to the lost. And they DO look at us. When Scripture speaks of branches being broken off and burned, someone being disapproved or a castaway, I think it is wrong to just assume that means "lose their salvation". It's wrong because God tells us that once we are His we will never BE cast away. Put on a shelf, harshly disciplined, get sick and die, maybe, but NOT condemned. We who are in Christ are not condemned. Living a "good" life does not save us, therefore, it also cannot KEEP us saved.

987 posted on 06/01/2012 9:29:18 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: metmom

I should say first, DO NOT die in mortal sin.

“I have already died to sin.”

~ ~ ~

Must be why you guys are preaching Jesus did all by His
death on the Cross, He covered all your sins, you are justified because you’re sinless. Wow!! A saint on earth.

And such humility.....


988 posted on 06/01/2012 9:32:24 PM PDT by stpio
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To: CynicalBear

>>”On Earth I instituted the Church”<<

That’s a lie from the pit of hell which makes that so called “seer” a wolf in sheeps clothing to be condemned and ignored.

~ ~ ~

Second time you said it, doesn’t make it true CB. Read
Matthew 16:18. Peter was given the “Keys” by Christ, they
are a symbol of authority. Peter was made leader of Christ’s Church on earth. Peter was the first Pope. God names leaders, remember from the Old Testament? Peter is
buried under the high altar at St. Peter’s Basilica. This
is all history.

The RCC compiled the Bible, it didn’t drop from Heaven
complete and it didn’t appear in 1517. 382 A.D., was the
year it was canonized. There were various writings, all
separate and not all of them divinely inspired. Somebody
had to decide guided by God the Holy Spirit. That was
Pope Damasus.

A famous quote, “To be deep in history is to cease to be
Protestant.” John Henry Newman


989 posted on 06/01/2012 9:44:16 PM PDT by stpio
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To: CynicalBear; metmom; stpio; smvoice
I was wondering why all these purported "seers" and "prophets" and "apparitions" only seem to be toeing the Catholic Church line all the time? I wonder if these people who believe in them as legitimately from the Lord Jesus Christ would still think that if one or two of them started talking about how important it is to trust in Christ as Savior and read their Bibles and that it doesn't matter what Church they go to as long as they teach the Bible and worship the Lord? Would they be so quick to advertise everything that comes out from them if they made it plain that the Catholic Church is not the only way to be saved but that it is through faith alone?

Also, just as in the Old Testament time, God gave a foolproof way that everyone could recognize who was really His prophet - everything they said God told them MUST happen exactly as they said it would. If what they said did not happen, God said they were FALSE PROPHETS and the people should not fear them nor be at all concerned by what they may say. False prophets were also to be stoned - as in executed - that's how picky God was about anyone who claimed to speak for Him. Today, not so much, it seems anyone can find people to follow them if they sound spiritual enough. As always, Scripture is the authority for truth claims about the Christian faith. Any prophet that declares something that goes against Scripture cannot be from God, it really is that simple.

990 posted on 06/01/2012 9:47:51 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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Comment #991 Removed by Moderator

To: boatbums; All

“in every instance Paul spoke of faith there in Hebrews 11 he showed it was a faith demonstrated by ACTION and that is how our faith is expressed, by the kind of life we live, by our obedience to God as James made clear.”

~ ~ ~

James 2:24
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and NOT by faith only?

Exactly, it’s faith and works as James made clear. Our
“works” are our ACTIONS, our life choices, our lives lived. Faith is a free gift from God. Faith NEVER makes you do anything, you still have to choose a to do a good work. We’re not robots. Our choices, our “works” must be genuine, from the heart not a phony show, this is what Paul clarifies.

To follow Luther and His Sola Fide (faith alone), run away, it came from his own mind not God.


992 posted on 06/01/2012 9:56:49 PM PDT by stpio
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To: bkaycee
John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:55 is the metaphor.

~ ~ ~

John 6:51-52

I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my FLESH, for the life of the world.

Jesus says that the bread which He will give for the life of the world is His flesh. When did He give His flesh for the life of the world? On the cross. Was that symbolic? If you think Jesus is speaking symbolically here when He says that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, then you must also conclude that Jesus' death on the cross was symbolic...it wasn't really Jesus hanging up there...it was symbolic flesh and symbolic blood.

993 posted on 06/01/2012 10:21:19 PM PDT by stpio
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To: boatbums

“I was wondering why all these purported “seers” and “prophets” and “apparitions” only seem to be toeing the CATHOLIC CHURCH LINE all the time? I wonder if these people who believe in them as legitimately from the Lord Jesus Christ would still think that if one or two of them started talking about how important it is to trust in Christ as Savior and read their Bibles and that it doesn’t matter what Church they go to as long as they teach the Bible and worship the Lord? Would they be so quick to advertise everything that comes out from them if they made it plain that the Catholic Church is not the only way to be saved but that it is through faith alone?

Also, just as in the Old Testament time, God gave a foolproof way that everyone could recognize who was really His prophet - EVERYTHING they said God told them MUST happen exactly as they said it would. If what they said did not happen, God said they were FALSE PROPHETS”...

~ ~ ~

I can answer your question. Reading the Protestant and
Catholic messages from Heaven for a few years, Our Lord is preparing everyone for one end time. There aren’t two boatbums.

The Catholic messages are more EXPLICIT for a reason. If
Our Lord stated specifically in a Protestant prophecy right
now, the Holy Eucharist is true, Protestants would not believe it so He gently speaks of this Truth. Seeeee...He is getting our brothers and sisters in Christ prepared to accept Catholicism.

IF any Protestants read the Protestant excerpts and messages I’ve posted they would read Jesus speaking of unity of oneness of belief and of the “full Truth.” He is that loving. Our Lord is actually preparing the world to accept the true faith.

Your second comment. Prophecy is a warning and a help,
if people believe and pray, SOME events can be mitigated. We see examples in the Old Testament. It isn’t always true because of our human way of deciding, “yes, that didn’t happen, they are a false prophet.” Prophecy is not set in stone. Not ALL verses that contain the term “false prophet” refer to events prophesied, most of them are referring to heretics preaching a false Gospel.


994 posted on 06/01/2012 10:49:07 PM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio; bkaycee
This time you used “substitutionary atonement.” What happened to your word metaphor? Are you stating, eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) are a symbol, a metophor for believing in (faith alone) Christ, that is what saves you? How do you figure? Jesus’ death on the Cross was real, doesn’t it matter? Oh, that Luther, he can apply Sola Fide to everything.

Yea, blame everything on Luther! Lutherans believe in "consubstantiation" which reflects the views of Irenaeus or Justin Martyr.

Some people may not realize this but the doctrine of the Eucharist was first given dogmatic expression in the Catholic Church at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, when the Church formally adopted the doctrine of transubstantiation as its official teaching. This was confirmed by the Council of Trent, which also asserted that the Lord’s Supper was a propitiatory sacrifice for sin. These are the two primary and supremely important elements of the Church’s teaching on the Eucharist — transubstantiation and sacrifice. For the first 1200 years of the Church’s life there was no unanimity on the nature of the eucharist. (from http://www.the-highway.com/eucharist_Webster.html). We also learn that not every early church father agreed on the subject. Some believed and taught that the Eucharist was symbolic while some taught it was literal. From the above link:

    The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, as it is sometimes called, is included in the collection of works known as the Apostolic Fathers, and is one of the oldest documents from the immediate post-apostolic age that we possess. It is an early manual of Church discipline dated from between the late first century and 140 A.D., and it simply refers to the Lord’s Supper as spiritual food and drink. There is no indication that the elements are transformed in anyway. Ignatius of Antioch (martyred c. 110 A.D.), on the other hand, speaks of the eucharist as the body and blood of Christ which communicates eternal life. Justin Martyr (100/110-165 A.D.) refers to the eucharistic elements as being more than common bread and wine,2 in that when they are consecrated they become the body and blood of Jesus; yet in his Dialogue with Trypho he wrote that the elements were bread and wine which were inaugurated by Christ as a memorial and remembrance of his body and blood.3 So while he spoke of a change in the elements, it seems that in his conception, the elements still remain, in essence, bread and wine. Like Justin, Irenaeus of Lyons (140-202 A.D.) clearly believed the bread and wine became the body and blood of Jesus at consecration,4 but he also stated that the elements were composed of two realities — one earthly and one heavenly, or spiritual.5 He implied that at consecration, though the elements are no longer common bread and wine, they do not lose the nature of being bread and wine.

    At the same time, there was a continuing representation by many Fathers of the eucharistic elements as figures or symbols of the Lord’s body and blood, although they also believed the Lord was spiritually present in the sacrament. Pope Gelasius I (492-496A.D.), for example, believed that the bread and wine in substance at consecration did not cease to be bread and wine,11 a view shared by Eusebius, Theodoret, Serapion, Jerome, Athanasius, Ambrosiaster, Macanus of Egypt, and Eustathius of Antioch.12

    However, the theological giant who provided the most comprehensive and influential defence of the symbolic interpretation of the Lord’s Supper was Augustine.13 He gave very clear instructions and principles for determining when a passage of Scripture should be interpreted literally and when figuratively. Passages of Scripture must always be interpreted in the light of the entire revelation of Scripture, he concluded, and he used John 6 as a specific example of a passage that should be interpreted figuratively.14

    Augustine argued that the sacraments, including the eucharist, are signs and figures which represent or symbolize spiritual realities. He made a distinction between the physical, historical body of Christ and the sacramental presence, maintaining that Christ’s physical body could not literally be present in the sacrament of the eucharist because he is physically at the right hand of God in heaven, and will be there until he comes again. But Christ is spiritually with his people.15 Augustine viewed the eucharist in spiritual terms and he interpreted the true meaning of eating and drinking as being faith: ‘To believe on Him is to eat the living bread. He that believes eats; he is sated invisibly, because invisibly is he born again.’

Even more quotations from the early church fathers are provided at the link. I think it is more than obvious that the purpose of the Lord's Supper/Eucharist was to remember Christ's sacrifice for our sins and when we partake of the "elements" of this, we are reminded of His place as our redeemer and Savior. It is, after all, ONLY an observance for those who have already received Christ in faith - the eating of the bread and drinking of the wine is NOT what does the saving - ONLY faith is what saves us. Someone can eat a truckload of "consecrated hosts" and they would not be any closer to heaven if they didn't believe in Christ.

995 posted on 06/01/2012 10:57:48 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

“I disagree”

Yes, I can see that you do...at least in part. Otherwise I’m having a bit of difficulty in see the point you’re making with the rest of your comments unless it’s perhaps an idea of universal salvation.

Maybe because it’s late or maybe I’m just not quick enough but I just don’t see where you’re going here.


996 posted on 06/01/2012 10:59:08 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: boatbums

Here’s an example of Protestant message. An excerpt,
the first words of a message to Debra Lowe.

Read the underlined, they speak about what’s coming...

1. The “awakening”, also known as the Great Warning. You
“and see who you really are” in everyone’s personal life
review during the Great Warning.

2. Second paragraph, Jesus states “we will be as one”, that
means one in belief, all the sheep gathered together believing the same. Alleluia

3. Long awaited, the “maturing” of the sons and daughters
of God. Translation: Protestants and Orthodox will accept
the fullness of revelation.

P.S. Sounds in the first sentences, like some people are praying for a Rapture, not the true time that is to soon happen, uniting our crosses with Christ in the Great Tribulation.

DEBRA LOWE
http://daughtersofz.typepad.com/

6/1/12

I hear My Church crying for My return, their hearts longing for My rule and My reign. The time where peace is the order of the day and love is true and felt. I hear My children crying to be lifted up in their Father’s arms, to know the safe haven of home. I hear My bride crying to be swept up and swept away. Yes, now the whole creation is in travail for the culmination of My promise. I hear and I Am attending to your cries. As you are coming to an end, you are stepping over into the new, a time that I have longed for, a day of restoration not of things, but of you. I have always been on a course to straighten out the crooked places in you. You will open your eyes from the clouds of distractions AND SEE WHO YOU REALLY ARE. This time all fear will be gone and some of you who have been hindered by the crooked place of fear will no longer be hemmed in. You will place your hand in Mine and trust that I know exactly how to accomplish even the most difficult task that I have called you to do. As you take the step the supply will be abundantly given. It will be a time of taking the five loaves and two fishes, multiplication at the prayers that are offered. Ask of me in that simple faith, I will hear that cry as well.

You will do as is written of My children, and WE WILL BE AS ONE,that is why before the words are formed in your mouth I will have sent the answer. THIS IS THE TIME THAT WE HAVE LONG AWAITED, THE MATURING OF THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD. Now comes the entrance of the true heirs of the Kingdom. Boldness to sweep the land that I have given to you, no longer ashamed to offer the Kingdom to all, the rich, the poor, the young, the old, male and female, the cry will be heard to every nation. Loud and strong as you join Me to snatch souls from hell’s fire. You just know that the time is close, that it is high time to wake from the slumber. Cry loud, the night is far spent, the day is at hand. Go, My messengers, go My witnesses, I have set you free to spread and proclaim. You must go as one that is on fire, you must go as one that blows with the force of the wind...


997 posted on 06/01/2012 11:08:55 PM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio; metmom
Must be why you guys are preaching Jesus did all by His death on the Cross, He covered all your sins, you are justified because you’re sinless. Wow!! A saint on earth. And such humility.....

The only reason we are preaching that Jesus' sacrifice was the propitiation for our sin (complete satisfactory payment) is because that is what Scripture says. If it didn't say it, we would not be able to quote you all the times it does - and we have done so numerous times. For a person to say that their sins are paid for is far from boasting simply because we know it is not what we have done to deserve it but by God's grace. And that IS what a saint is - one who is sanctified, set apart - and all those who are in Christ are justified. It isn't Scripture's fault that some religions misuse the term.

998 posted on 06/01/2012 11:09:33 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: All

oops, sorry, I left out a word.

1. The “awakening”, also known as the Great Warning. You
WILL “and see who you really are” in everyone’s personal life
review during the Great Warning.


999 posted on 06/01/2012 11:14:25 PM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio
One more time...I don't "follow" Luther.

Go back and read all of the book of James. That is the only way to understand the context of that one sentence so many people pull out as if it was their "trump" card. Faith is NOT the free gift God gave us, in fact, the gift is eternal life which God gives us by His grace and we receive it by faith. Any time someone adds ANY kind of works to the equation it ceases to be grace and becomes a debt owed because of work. Romans 11:6 very clearly states that if it is by grace then it cannot be by works because grace would not be grace. The opposite is true, too, if we are saved by our works, then it cannot be by grace because work would not be work.

We should take ALL of Scripture into account when we want to understand specific verses. Snippet hunting is lousy hermeneutics.

1,000 posted on 06/01/2012 11:22:27 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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