Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
As a Catholic...So the blood of Jesus only covers and pays for confessed sin.Jesus opened Heaven by His death on the Cross but His suffering death does not cover all our sins in meaning we are saved...justified. Apologist Jimmy Akin states better than I can.
“Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness. -—Excerpt from an article by Jimmy Akin, Catholic Insight, The Limits of Forgiveness.”
The remaining payment for sin is withheld in until new sin is confessed to a priest and absolution and penance are complete?
So Catholics are judged on their state of unconfessed and not yet paid for sin AND the amount of good works one must perform to merit heaven. Correct?
Whatever the motives of those in Matt. 7 clearly their motives were not pure as Jesus said he never knew them, he didn’t recognize them.
In fact they were evil doers.
However, a truly saved person is not going to be a habitual, cold-blooded murderer. Such a man has no salvation to lose. he's already lost.
And David, while indeed murdering and committing adultery, was not habitually doing so.
And yet they DID have the works that many claim are the fruit of their salvation. And therein lies the problem.
Men can have the intellectual assent, do the works of their own strength and think they're saved because someone told them that those works were the evidence of their salvation and go to the grave deceived.
True saving faith WILL result in a change in behavior and attitude and actions.The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
I actually met someone once who was laughing about the born again's. He said that he had tried it once and it didn't work for him, or wasn't for him, or something to that effect. I was speechless at that point. I have no idea what happened to him as I never saw him again after that.
I still don't think God gives up that easily on us. Look at the father in the account of the prodigal. He still considered his son his son. He didn't disown him.
I have to agree with iscool on this one in regard to 1 Corinthians 5:5
They just add what ever suits their needs...And then they tell us it is bible truth...
With apologies, you have to look at why people walked away from Jesus. Check John 6 from which my quote was excerpted.
Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness. -—Excerpt from an article by Jimmy Akin, Catholic Insight, The Limits of Forgiveness.
bkaycee:
“So Catholics are judged on their state of unconfessed and not yet paid for sin AND the amount of good works one must perform to merit heaven. Correct?”
~ ~ ~
Hi,
I should say first, DO NOT die in mortal sin. A topic for another thread since many Protestants reject greater (mortal) and lessor (venial) sins.
Remember in Revelation where it says nothing “unholy” enters
Heaven? It’s true, God is perfectly loving and perfectly
just. This means we must account for, make reparation for all our unloving actions (sins) during our life, that includes confessed sins. A person makes reparation here by or loving acts, prayers and sufferings and if not completed here, you make reparation over the veil in Purgatory.
back to the continued discussion over...
Our Lord’s death on the Cross does NOT justify anyone because salvation is a life long process. Every person, not only a Catholic person loses God’s presence in their soul when they commit a mortal (serious) sin. This is the reason...
Jesus established Confession -John 20:23-, the means to regain God’s presence in your soul. Protestants reject Sacramental Confession to a priest so you all have one recompense right now, you must with absolute contrition confess your mortal sins directly to God.
After the Great Warning, when God shows you personally, Protestants, not all, will have a change of belief. Just remember....
OSAS and as you often hear Protestants profess, “Jesus paid the price, His death on the Cross covers all our sins” are NOT true. Here’s some verses to help you see. Martin
Luther’s false “faith alone” so messes up Protestants.
Judged according to deeds:
Romans 2:5-8 - God will repay each man according to his works
2 Corinthians 11:15 - recompense accord to what one did in their body (their end will correspond to their deeds)
Colossians 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges impartially accordingly to one’s works
Revelation 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their deeds
________________
Assurance of Salvation?
Matthew 7:21 - It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Matthew 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Romans 11:23 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
1 Corinthians 9:27 - I punish my body and bring it under control, to avoid any risk that, having acted as herald for others, I myself may be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure, may fall
Philippians 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Galatians 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2 Timothy 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hebrews 6:4-6 - describes sharers of the Holy Spirit, who then fall away
Hebrews 10:26-27 - if we sin, after receiving the truth, judgment remains
2 Peter 2:17-22 - It would have been better for them never to have learned the way of uprightness, than to learn it and then desert the holy commandment that was entrusted to them.
“The site you link to is replete with so called “MESSAGES FROM MARY”. Once again that’s a totally unscriptural belief. No where in scripture is Mary elevated to the position Catholics give her and in reality has it’s origins in paganism.”
~ ~ ~
~CORRECTION~
The Seer from Brazil, known as “light of Mary” receives
messages from Our Lord AND His mother.
In the excerpt I posted from a recent message -May 20th,
Our Lord states He “instituted the Church” and He describes
the Great Warning. Remember what Our Lord shares especially about the Warning, Protestants know it as the “awakening” and we all can understand His meaning even if it is a translation.
May 20, 2012
..YOU SURPASS THE TIME OF THE TOWER OF BABEL, men compete with his Savor. Men has created to himself confusion, errors and selfishness.
MY DEVOTION FOR MINE IS QUICKLY FORGOTTEN. In this instant My Passion of Love is seen as a remote past and I LIVE IN MY PEOPLE. Painfully I see so many souls that are lost for the lack of one good word regarding this GREAT REALITY THAT IS MY PRESENCE IN EACH HUMAN BEING.
What libertinism, irreverence, outrage, vices, degeneration and denial, I constantly hear from the mouth of those who should adore Me!
This is the reason for the pleas, of the signs that you should not let go unnoticed, since they speak for themselves.
On Earth I instituted the Church so that My people would not go astray and now navigates through a sea of storms. The society corrupts My Consecrated ones, the society distract them from their obligations, infiltrating in them human power and degrading My Teachings.
~ ~ I will come and call on men’s conscience, without warning. I will call and will enter so they will see their atrocities and repent. I will place each one in front of himself and there will be no human creature that will resist My Will in My ardent desire to save them, in spite of this some will continue to be in sin, renouncing Me... ~ ~
http://www.revelacionesmarianas.com/english_version.htm
That's a lie from the pit of hell which makes that so called "seer" a wolf in sheeps clothing to be condemned and ignored.
That is a given, the point being that simply manifesting supernatural power (prophesying, casting out devils, “wonderful works”), while valid when from God (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:3,4) is not the same as the “things which accompany salvation,” (Heb. 6:9), which is mainly love for the brethren (which in those days was risky, as it is today in persecuted places).
“But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. {10} For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. {11} And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:” (Heb 6:9-11)
“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; {4} Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. {5} For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. {6} And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: {7} So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. {8} For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.” (1 Th 1:3-8)
And here is a thought: i think even Lot, despite the negative aspects of his testimony, exampled some virtues that are rare today in the Western church. The man utterly refused to allow the men from God to lodge in the street, but like Lydia, (Acts 16:15) constrained the brethren to abide with his family, loving them more than his own, and risked his own life on their behalf (prohomosexual activists are still pressing against any man or door that withstands them, hence the need for help from angels), and had two daughters were were yet virgins, even in a city given to fornication (how many pastors today can claim that?) while the others were married (to men).
One must indeed “frontslide” (which those being warned in Gal. 5, etc. did) before he can backslide.
Wow, where do you see the REAL PRESENCE in “You have the WORDS of eternal life. We BELIEVE and KNOW that you are the Holy One of God.
They just add what ever suits their needs...And then they tell us it is bible truth...
~ ~ ~
No friend, The Holy Eucharist, the Real Presence is prefigured in the Old Testament and over and over again in the New Testament, Our Lord’s very words. The “reformers” rejected the Eucharist because they could not confect it, they rejected the Church and the New Covenant ministerial priesthood.
John 6:54-55
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Read on...
Only in John 6:57 does Our Lord say how He abides in
you and you in Him. In receiving the Eucharist.
John 6:57
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
The thread, mostly disagreement over Scripture since it is
Protestant’s authority. Why? You can give your own meaning
to Scripture. Instead, read the quotes of the first
Christians, some of them knew the Apostles. Did they
believe in the Real Presence. Yes.
I walked away from the RCC to Jesus!
Jesus saves, not the Roman church. By Grace alone, Through Faith alone, in Christ Alone!
Isn't that what I've been saying already? That faith has action attached to it?
“I still don't think God gives up that easily on us. Look at the father in the account of the prodigal. He still considered his son his son. He didn't disown him.”
And was overjoyed when the young man repented of his wayward course and returned to the family.
“I have to agree with iscool on this one in regard to 1 Corinthians 5:5”
Being able to disagree without being disagreeable makes for good conversation.
John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 is the metaphor.
Amen!
Thanks be to GOD!
“Did we not do this and such in your name”.
Saying in so many words, “You owe me”.
Lot is an interesting fellow. He seems more righteous than good and a real contrast to Abraham.
Wouldn't a discussion of Lot's life be edifying?
I have search this out much over the years, and have seen two extremes, and can appreciate the reasoning behind both, but i believe the truth is in the middle.
I have a brother in Christ who told people that they can be perfect with God no matter what they do wrong, as long as they believe the promise of Jesus to save them as sinners, and that the only repentance in conversion is repenting from unbelief in Christ to save to believing His promise to give sinners eternal life
But which presents Jesus somewhat abstractly simply as as a gift-giver, and misconstrues faith to be just something that believes the promise to give eternal life. (While another church largely fosters faith in the power of their church to save whoever die as one of them).
On the other end are those who require souls to stop sinning and make Jesus their Lord in order to be converted, and to make contrite souls so sin focused (not Christ and grace conscious), no matter how little or rare, and so condemned so that they never or rarely can have assurance that they have eternal life. (Or must trust the self-proclaimed powers of the church to gain them eternal life.)
Another recent (Korean) cultic group teaches that since believers are righteous on Christ, who died for all their sins, then it is a denial of faith to confess sins and ask God to forgive them after conversion. (Thus few outside their elite group are considered saved.)
But what we see in the balanced soteriology of Scripture is not that of repenting from a detailed list of sins in conversion, but a basic turning to the Lord Jesus in faith to save them as damned and destitute sinners, helpless to escape Hell or gain Heaven, and instead trusting in the risen Lord Jesus to save them by His sinless shed blood, (Rm. 3:9-25)
But in which faith is an implicit basic repentance, that of choosing Light over Darkness, in contrast to the lost, (Jn. 3:19-21) as the Christ that was preached was one that loved righteousness and hated iniquity, and who will judge all men and make His enemies, which the lost are, His footstool. And which can be seen in studying Peter’s sermon in Acts 2.
Thus being convicted of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, (Jn. 16:9) they turned to the Lord Jesus for salvation, and implicitly are also making a basic turn in their hearts from sin to Him, relative to the light they have (important to note).
Thus Paul “reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come” to lost Felix, (Acts 24:25) and Peter testified to lost Jews, “Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”(Acts 3:26)
They therefore, having been told to repent and turn to God and appropriated justification by faith, (Rm. 4:1-7ff) they showed forth works which corresponded to repentance, (Acts 26:22) confirmatory of true, complete faith. (Ja 2)
And we ask God to forgive us, for while we are accepted in the Beloved, and positionally righteousness, yet God can have something against us, (Rv. 2:4,14,20) and which we need to set right.
And they were also warned about doing the opposite in denying the faith, by earning salvation or by impenitent willful practicing sin after having received so great salvation. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 10:19-39)
And to reiterate, it is not that Christians cannot sin if they are saved, but that their life is characterized by righteousness, and repentance when convicted of not doing so.
Thus,
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
This is not in the absolute sense, as if a Christ never can do unrighteousness, or that the lost cannot do good things (such as the pagans did in showing kindness to the survivors in Acts 27), but it speaks in the continuous (doeth, committeth) and overall sense.
Therefore assurance of the salvation of souls is given to those who evidence things which accompany salvation, while “no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Eph 5:5-6)
If a believer impenitently, willfully engages in sin, and does not repent when convicted, God will chasten them, so that they can be motivated to repent, so that they will not be condemned with the rest of the world.
And yet we can also struggle with sin that we keep repenting from, “the sin which doth so easily beset us,” (Heb. 12:1) and which repentant response is a testimony to faith (i think Rm. 7 is a post conversion stage of Paul), which is much different from those who are careless about it, but to whom the Scriptures give encouragement to, that we (me) should look to Jesus (focused on Him, not sin), and so “run with patience the race that is set before us.” So may be pray that He will always be our (my) focus, and not even let the politics of the hour give us despair.
Good testimony and to hear from you bkaycee. And they all said Amen.
“Wouldn’t a discussion of Lot’s life be edifying?”
Well, apart from the negatives, he could teach us some things. Open our doors to the brethren and keep the church door closed to homosexual marriage,
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