Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
As a Catholic...So the blood of Jesus only covers and pays for confessed sin.Jesus opened Heaven by His death on the Cross but His suffering death does not cover all our sins in meaning we are saved...justified. Apologist Jimmy Akin states better than I can.
“Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness. -—Excerpt from an article by Jimmy Akin, Catholic Insight, The Limits of Forgiveness.”
The remaining payment for sin is withheld in until new sin is confessed to a priest and absolution and penance are complete?
So Catholics are judged on their state of unconfessed and not yet paid for sin AND the amount of good works one must perform to merit heaven. Correct?
Whatever the motives of those in Matt. 7 clearly their motives were not pure as Jesus said he never knew them, he didn’t recognize them.
In fact they were evil doers.
However, a truly saved person is not going to be a habitual, cold-blooded murderer. Such a man has no salvation to lose. he's already lost.
And David, while indeed murdering and committing adultery, was not habitually doing so.
And yet they DID have the works that many claim are the fruit of their salvation. And therein lies the problem.
Men can have the intellectual assent, do the works of their own strength and think they're saved because someone told them that those works were the evidence of their salvation and go to the grave deceived.
True saving faith WILL result in a change in behavior and attitude and actions.The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
I actually met someone once who was laughing about the born again's. He said that he had tried it once and it didn't work for him, or wasn't for him, or something to that effect. I was speechless at that point. I have no idea what happened to him as I never saw him again after that.
I still don't think God gives up that easily on us. Look at the father in the account of the prodigal. He still considered his son his son. He didn't disown him.
I have to agree with iscool on this one in regard to 1 Corinthians 5:5
They just add what ever suits their needs...And then they tell us it is bible truth...
With apologies, you have to look at why people walked away from Jesus. Check John 6 from which my quote was excerpted.
Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness. -—Excerpt from an article by Jimmy Akin, Catholic Insight, The Limits of Forgiveness.
bkaycee:
“So Catholics are judged on their state of unconfessed and not yet paid for sin AND the amount of good works one must perform to merit heaven. Correct?”
~ ~ ~
Hi,
I should say first, DO NOT die in mortal sin. A topic for another thread since many Protestants reject greater (mortal) and lessor (venial) sins.
Remember in Revelation where it says nothing “unholy” enters
Heaven? It’s true, God is perfectly loving and perfectly
just. This means we must account for, make reparation for all our unloving actions (sins) during our life, that includes confessed sins. A person makes reparation here by or loving acts, prayers and sufferings and if not completed here, you make reparation over the veil in Purgatory.
back to the continued discussion over...
Our Lord’s death on the Cross does NOT justify anyone because salvation is a life long process. Every person, not only a Catholic person loses God’s presence in their soul when they commit a mortal (serious) sin. This is the reason...
Jesus established Confession -John 20:23-, the means to regain God’s presence in your soul. Protestants reject Sacramental Confession to a priest so you all have one recompense right now, you must with absolute contrition confess your mortal sins directly to God.
After the Great Warning, when God shows you personally, Protestants, not all, will have a change of belief. Just remember....
OSAS and as you often hear Protestants profess, “Jesus paid the price, His death on the Cross covers all our sins” are NOT true. Here’s some verses to help you see. Martin
Luther’s false “faith alone” so messes up Protestants.
Judged according to deeds:
Romans 2:5-8 - God will repay each man according to his works
2 Corinthians 11:15 - recompense accord to what one did in their body (their end will correspond to their deeds)
Colossians 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges impartially accordingly to one’s works
Revelation 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their deeds
________________
Assurance of Salvation?
Matthew 7:21 - It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Matthew 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Romans 11:23 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
1 Corinthians 9:27 - I punish my body and bring it under control, to avoid any risk that, having acted as herald for others, I myself may be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure, may fall
Philippians 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Galatians 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2 Timothy 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hebrews 6:4-6 - describes sharers of the Holy Spirit, who then fall away
Hebrews 10:26-27 - if we sin, after receiving the truth, judgment remains
2 Peter 2:17-22 - It would have been better for them never to have learned the way of uprightness, than to learn it and then desert the holy commandment that was entrusted to them.
“The site you link to is replete with so called “MESSAGES FROM MARY”. Once again that’s a totally unscriptural belief. No where in scripture is Mary elevated to the position Catholics give her and in reality has it’s origins in paganism.”
~ ~ ~
~CORRECTION~
The Seer from Brazil, known as “light of Mary” receives
messages from Our Lord AND His mother.
In the excerpt I posted from a recent message -May 20th,
Our Lord states He “instituted the Church” and He describes
the Great Warning. Remember what Our Lord shares especially about the Warning, Protestants know it as the “awakening” and we all can understand His meaning even if it is a translation.
May 20, 2012
..YOU SURPASS THE TIME OF THE TOWER OF BABEL, men compete with his Savor. Men has created to himself confusion, errors and selfishness.
MY DEVOTION FOR MINE IS QUICKLY FORGOTTEN. In this instant My Passion of Love is seen as a remote past and I LIVE IN MY PEOPLE. Painfully I see so many souls that are lost for the lack of one good word regarding this GREAT REALITY THAT IS MY PRESENCE IN EACH HUMAN BEING.
What libertinism, irreverence, outrage, vices, degeneration and denial, I constantly hear from the mouth of those who should adore Me!
This is the reason for the pleas, of the signs that you should not let go unnoticed, since they speak for themselves.
On Earth I instituted the Church so that My people would not go astray and now navigates through a sea of storms. The society corrupts My Consecrated ones, the society distract them from their obligations, infiltrating in them human power and degrading My Teachings.
~ ~ I will come and call on men’s conscience, without warning. I will call and will enter so they will see their atrocities and repent. I will place each one in front of himself and there will be no human creature that will resist My Will in My ardent desire to save them, in spite of this some will continue to be in sin, renouncing Me... ~ ~
http://www.revelacionesmarianas.com/english_version.htm
That's a lie from the pit of hell which makes that so called "seer" a wolf in sheeps clothing to be condemned and ignored.
That is a given, the point being that simply manifesting supernatural power (prophesying, casting out devils, “wonderful works”), while valid when from God (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:3,4) is not the same as the “things which accompany salvation,” (Heb. 6:9), which is mainly love for the brethren (which in those days was risky, as it is today in persecuted places).
“But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. {10} For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. {11} And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:” (Heb 6:9-11)
“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; {4} Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. {5} For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. {6} And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: {7} So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. {8} For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.” (1 Th 1:3-8)
And here is a thought: i think even Lot, despite the negative aspects of his testimony, exampled some virtues that are rare today in the Western church. The man utterly refused to allow the men from God to lodge in the street, but like Lydia, (Acts 16:15) constrained the brethren to abide with his family, loving them more than his own, and risked his own life on their behalf (prohomosexual activists are still pressing against any man or door that withstands them, hence the need for help from angels), and had two daughters were were yet virgins, even in a city given to fornication (how many pastors today can claim that?) while the others were married (to men).
One must indeed “frontslide” (which those being warned in Gal. 5, etc. did) before he can backslide.
Wow, where do you see the REAL PRESENCE in “You have the WORDS of eternal life. We BELIEVE and KNOW that you are the Holy One of God.
They just add what ever suits their needs...And then they tell us it is bible truth...
~ ~ ~
No friend, The Holy Eucharist, the Real Presence is prefigured in the Old Testament and over and over again in the New Testament, Our Lord’s very words. The “reformers” rejected the Eucharist because they could not confect it, they rejected the Church and the New Covenant ministerial priesthood.
John 6:54-55
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Read on...
Only in John 6:57 does Our Lord say how He abides in
you and you in Him. In receiving the Eucharist.
John 6:57
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
The thread, mostly disagreement over Scripture since it is
Protestant’s authority. Why? You can give your own meaning
to Scripture. Instead, read the quotes of the first
Christians, some of them knew the Apostles. Did they
believe in the Real Presence. Yes.
I walked away from the RCC to Jesus!
Jesus saves, not the Roman church. By Grace alone, Through Faith alone, in Christ Alone!
Isn't that what I've been saying already? That faith has action attached to it?
“I still don't think God gives up that easily on us. Look at the father in the account of the prodigal. He still considered his son his son. He didn't disown him.”
And was overjoyed when the young man repented of his wayward course and returned to the family.
“I have to agree with iscool on this one in regard to 1 Corinthians 5:5”
Being able to disagree without being disagreeable makes for good conversation.
John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 is the metaphor.
Amen!
Thanks be to GOD!
“Did we not do this and such in your name”.
Saying in so many words, “You owe me”.
Lot is an interesting fellow. He seems more righteous than good and a real contrast to Abraham.
Wouldn't a discussion of Lot's life be edifying?
I have search this out much over the years, and have seen two extremes, and can appreciate the reasoning behind both, but i believe the truth is in the middle.
I have a brother in Christ who told people that they can be perfect with God no matter what they do wrong, as long as they believe the promise of Jesus to save them as sinners, and that the only repentance in conversion is repenting from unbelief in Christ to save to believing His promise to give sinners eternal life
But which presents Jesus somewhat abstractly simply as as a gift-giver, and misconstrues faith to be just something that believes the promise to give eternal life. (While another church largely fosters faith in the power of their church to save whoever die as one of them).
On the other end are those who require souls to stop sinning and make Jesus their Lord in order to be converted, and to make contrite souls so sin focused (not Christ and grace conscious), no matter how little or rare, and so condemned so that they never or rarely can have assurance that they have eternal life. (Or must trust the self-proclaimed powers of the church to gain them eternal life.)
Another recent (Korean) cultic group teaches that since believers are righteous on Christ, who died for all their sins, then it is a denial of faith to confess sins and ask God to forgive them after conversion. (Thus few outside their elite group are considered saved.)
But what we see in the balanced soteriology of Scripture is not that of repenting from a detailed list of sins in conversion, but a basic turning to the Lord Jesus in faith to save them as damned and destitute sinners, helpless to escape Hell or gain Heaven, and instead trusting in the risen Lord Jesus to save them by His sinless shed blood, (Rm. 3:9-25)
But in which faith is an implicit basic repentance, that of choosing Light over Darkness, in contrast to the lost, (Jn. 3:19-21) as the Christ that was preached was one that loved righteousness and hated iniquity, and who will judge all men and make His enemies, which the lost are, His footstool. And which can be seen in studying Peter’s sermon in Acts 2.
Thus being convicted of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, (Jn. 16:9) they turned to the Lord Jesus for salvation, and implicitly are also making a basic turn in their hearts from sin to Him, relative to the light they have (important to note).
Thus Paul “reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come” to lost Felix, (Acts 24:25) and Peter testified to lost Jews, “Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”(Acts 3:26)
They therefore, having been told to repent and turn to God and appropriated justification by faith, (Rm. 4:1-7ff) they showed forth works which corresponded to repentance, (Acts 26:22) confirmatory of true, complete faith. (Ja 2)
And we ask God to forgive us, for while we are accepted in the Beloved, and positionally righteousness, yet God can have something against us, (Rv. 2:4,14,20) and which we need to set right.
And they were also warned about doing the opposite in denying the faith, by earning salvation or by impenitent willful practicing sin after having received so great salvation. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 10:19-39)
And to reiterate, it is not that Christians cannot sin if they are saved, but that their life is characterized by righteousness, and repentance when convicted of not doing so.
Thus,
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
This is not in the absolute sense, as if a Christ never can do unrighteousness, or that the lost cannot do good things (such as the pagans did in showing kindness to the survivors in Acts 27), but it speaks in the continuous (doeth, committeth) and overall sense.
Therefore assurance of the salvation of souls is given to those who evidence things which accompany salvation, while “no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Eph 5:5-6)
If a believer impenitently, willfully engages in sin, and does not repent when convicted, God will chasten them, so that they can be motivated to repent, so that they will not be condemned with the rest of the world.
And yet we can also struggle with sin that we keep repenting from, “the sin which doth so easily beset us,” (Heb. 12:1) and which repentant response is a testimony to faith (i think Rm. 7 is a post conversion stage of Paul), which is much different from those who are careless about it, but to whom the Scriptures give encouragement to, that we (me) should look to Jesus (focused on Him, not sin), and so “run with patience the race that is set before us.” So may be pray that He will always be our (my) focus, and not even let the politics of the hour give us despair.
Good testimony and to hear from you bkaycee. And they all said Amen.
“Wouldn’t a discussion of Lot’s life be edifying?”
Well, apart from the negatives, he could teach us some things. Open our doors to the brethren and keep the church door closed to homosexual marriage,
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.