Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
So the RCC can just make stuff up? The RCC is blasphemous in it’s adoration of Mary. Scripture should give even the casual reader evidence of that.
Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, (Greek Menounge: nay surely, nay rather) blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Jesus disagreed with the words spoken about Mary and said those who believed were the ones who were blessed.
The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.
It’s so difficult to get through.
Believing Martin Luther’s “faith alone” and not seeing it’s God’s action, His rules, the rituals He has decided saves us plus our “actions”, our cooperation to receive God’s grace. 3 things, this is what saves us.
It was posted, the term, a rejection calling something required “extreme legalism.”
Denial that we must follow God’s set down holy “rituals” which are the greatest means to receive His grace. God uses physical things to impart His grace.
Where is the physical used in the new Protestant teaching
of “born again?” Where is the water as Jesus states is required in John chapter 3, in His explaining the meaning of “born again” to Nicodemus?
Acts Of Apostles 2:38
But Peter said to them: DO penance, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What this thread proves, once again, is the Catholics are all for Scripture. Until it contradicts tradition. Then they are against Scripture.
Praise be to God.
I pray that miracles continue to touch your life as they have mine.
Actually, they will claim they do, but while such does at least somewhat attest to the supernatural (which atheists refuse to even allow), it hardly compares with the purity, passion, probity and power which the apostles could attest they were “approving ourselves as the ministers of God, (2Cor. 6:4ff) with constant supernatural “signs of an apostle” wrought “in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds,” (2Cor. 12:12), neither where the supposed successors even chosen by the method used for the one and only apostolic replacement (in order to maintain the original number of apostles. (Acts 1:15-26; cf. Rv. 21:14)
Yet even these manifestly God-ordained men did not claim assured infallibility for whatever they would ever universally speak on faith and morals, but validated their message by Scriptural means, in word and in power, explaining, “by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God”, (2 Corinthians 4:2) to the glory of God.
Matthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? Eat the word John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Ezek 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this scroll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. 2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that scroll. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Eat and drink the word of God.
The first Christians believed and passed down, “Born Again”
means water Baptism (John Chapter 3).
I have wondered, about the “altar call”, “born again” meaning of accepting Jesus into your heart one time as your personal Lord and Savior and you are saved.
Who came up with this belief? Who first wrote about it? I think it’s Evangelical, doesn’t come from traditional Protestantism.
“What this thread proves, once again, is the Catholics are all for Scripture. Until it contradicts tradition. Then they are against Scripture.”
~ ~ ~
Catholics follow the Church, her teaching on Scripture not
private judgment as Protestants do. If you follow the
Church, not one verse in Scripture (OT and NT) contradicts
the other.
Until you accept the Church gave the world the Bible, you
will always be contradicting the Truth. Who can stand
this, it’s basic.
Psalm 1:1-3 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.
Psalm 12:6 T he words of the LORD are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.
Psalm 119:9-16 How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word. 10 With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments! 11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.
12 Blessed are you, O Lord; teach me your statutes! 13 With my lips I declare all the rules of your mouth. 14 In the way of your testimonies I delight as much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways. 16 I will delight in your statutes; I will not forget your word.
Psalm 119:89 Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psalm 119:105 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
Proverbs 30:4-5 5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
“Let’s look at what Jesus thought of physically ingesting his flesh and blood.”
~ ~ ~
Wondering? Can you reply on the “altar call”...who first started preaching it?
On the Eucharist, please try to understand, it’s not
cannibalism. Jesus said I am the bread of life and He
explains, understand in the “spirit” not in a human way.
The Eucharist is divine ~ God wants everyone to receive
Him. It’s supernatural. How can it be mere bread becomes
God, all of Him? It does because He said so.
"They" are NEVER against Scripture. It deceitful to continue to present the Catholic view of Tradition and Scripture as an either/or proposition as much of Protestantism sees them.
The acceptance of Scripture does not automatically disqualify Tradition and the acceptance of Tradition does not automatically disqualify Scripture. Catholics believe that both together form the sacred deposit of faith (depositum fidei), and both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence:
CCC80 - "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age"."
I don't mind explaining and defending the doctrines and dogma's of the Church, but the unrecognizable mischaracterizations posted here only further cloud the issue and insult the truth. I don't expect to convert to anyone to Catholicism, but at least reject the Church for what it really is, not what it is assumed to be.
Peace be with you.
1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Why do Catholics insist on making it physical like the pagans did?
No quite, as the “gotta be in the Bible” is not dependent upon the premise that all that Jesus ever spoke or that is otherwise the Word of God is written, but that Scripture alone is the class of revelation that is the assured, supernaturally established word of God, upon substantiation by in word and in power the itinerant church began, and by which all is tested by.
And thus “gotta be in the Bible” requires it to be subject to verification by Scripture.
Many might hope brother John ‘heard” God tell him to give 25,000 to the church (or more weighty things), and maybe God did in His chosen way, but that does not have the authority of Scripture, though giving does.
Rome however, as with certain other religious groups, requires full assent of faith to even specific acts not in Scripture, not does assurance of the veracity of such depend upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, and which source again, some claim only has authority by her, hers being directly from God, while an interpretation is only authoritative if by her, thus she is effectively autocratic.
It appears your understanding (or misunderstanding) is related to the stage in the pedagogy of revelation that you are at.
A proper discussion of transubstantiation requires an understanding of the difference between a substance and a property in a philosophical. There are physical properties of the Eucharist that are not germane to the Catholic teaching regarding the substance of the Real Presence.
The human body of Jesus, although perfect, was 100% human in its properties. Jesus' divinity was substantive and not discernible from the properties of His human body.
Peace be with you.
Who came up with this belief? Who first wrote about it? I think it’s Evangelical, doesn’t come from traditional Protestantism.<<
Faith saves
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The means by which we are saved is an unwavering faith in Jesus.
John 6:38-40 Jesus said, “I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day”
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Paul rebukes Peter for applying rules for salvation.
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
1 JOHN 2:12 I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Relying on some legal earthly act is law not grace and faith.
And how do we know?
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Paul told the jailor “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved – and your house”.
There's a "game" alright being played. The classic "Bait and Switch" one.
Come to the Roman Catholic Church if you want to be saved.
Okay, I'm here, am I saved?
Uh, no, nobody can KNOW they are saved...
Oh really?
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Pope Pius XII solemnly defined in Munificentissimus Deus on Nov. 1, 1950, that the "Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."
That looks like a direct contradiction to me.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
And Catholics think that God commanded the brazen serpent which was a “graven image” but let’s see what happened to that.
2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
Would Catholics crush the statues of Mary or any of the Saints into dust or have they become idols?
I can find many cases of contradiction with Catholic belief and scripture.
“The Popes/Magesterium have no such authentication from God for their extra biblical tradition.”
Natural Law:
Are you contending that the Church has been completely without miracles since the death of St. John?
~ ~ ~
From the heart, No one will touch the prophetic even though
it is listed second in Scripture or, notice the current
Protestant prophetic is saying a divine event, from
God is going happen soon and the messages to Protesant prophets keep stating, there is a fullness of Truth. And Jesus desires and He is constant in Protestant current prophecy about unity of belief.
Oh well, just remember when the “event” takes place, the
wonderful, glorious, merciful 2nd Pentecost, the Great Warning.
How about the major “miracles”, all Roman Catholic.
Science has tested and tested...they’re not from this earth.
Shroud of Turin
Tilma of Guadalupe
50 years, Pio bore the wounds of Christ on his person
In that Scripture proceeded from the Tradition that preceded it, and that both share the same author, it cannot be in a different or higher class than its antecedent unless you are granting to the Church a power to revise the Tradition that it does not claim for itself. The Church and its Magisterium is a servant of the deposit of faith, not its creator or master.
Domisus Vobiscum.
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