Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
“not “vain repetitions”, i.e., “Hail Marys”, and adhering to extreme legalism.
~ ~ ~
Hi,
There are verses in Scripture, God asks for “repetitious”
prayer, He is pleased with it.
You misinterpret, the term means pray so people can see you, just to look holy, which amounts to insincere prayer.
Matt. 6:7 - Jesus teaches, “do not heap up empty phrases” in prayer. Protestants use this verse to criticize various Catholic forms of prayer which repeat phrases, such as litanies and the Rosary. But Jesus’ focus in this instruction is on the “vain,” and not on the “repetition.”
Matt. 26:44 - for example, Jesus prayed a third time in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It’s the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words.
Luke 18:13 - the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” This repetitive prayer was pleasing to God because it was offered with a sincere and repentant heart.
Acts 10:2,4 - Cornelius prayed constantly to the Lord and his prayers ascended as a memorial before God.
Rom. 1:9 - Paul says that he always mentions the Romans in his prayers without ceasing.
Rom. 12:12 - Paul commands us to be constant in prayer. God looks at what is in our heart, not necessarily how we choose our words.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul commands us to pray constantly. Good repetition is different than vain repetition.
Rev. 4:8 - the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.” This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God.
Psalm 136 - in this Psalm, the phrase “For His steadfast love endures forever” is more repetitious than any Catholic prayer, and it is God’s divine Word.
Dan. 3:35-66 - the phrase “Bless the Lord” is similarly offered repeatedly, and mirrors Catholic litanies.
The arguing will go on forever until God personally sets
everyone straight. That’s why no one will speak or reply
to the prophecy about Revelation 6:12-17. I must of
posted it three times.”
“If I thought it had bearing on the question at hand I would have but I really don’t see any reason to post it without further explanation.”
~ ~ ~
I was making a comment about the thread, 600 replies, no one changes, so why even go on in any discussion?
It will take God Himself. Break away, what say you? Why are some of the very words in Rev 6:16-17 explained in the prophecy excerpt I posted, the message from God Speaks Will You Listen? The explanation is pretty simple.
God is going to bring Christianity together and He tells you how in prophecy and it’s written in Scripture.
“True believers are already unified in the Spirit. Denominationalism (aka churchianity) is NOT Christianity. A one world religion is well, a one world religion, and it’s headed by Satan and the FALSE prophet, not God.”
~ ~ ~
I’ve been away, there are many comments to reply to, a lot, so I can’t but know I love you all.
I’ll say something because I believe prophecy is a help.
“Denomination” is a Protestant word, never existed in
Catholicism. Protestants are not “unified”, only in one
thing, the rejection of the true faith. The hallmark of
Protestantism is the inconsistency of belief.
Do you think the RCC is or will be the one world religion?
You are already deceived then. Satan is attacking the RCC
at the present and he’s stepping it up. He knows who the
true faith is...
Our Lord is not returning to make sure the RCC is destroyed
and to proclaim you are saved by the “grace” of the altar call, believe what you wish.
As I've said before,I started reading the Bible as an atheist,starting at the end and working backwards (which was typical,as an atheist I had most things bass ackwards).I found it mortifying to say the least!
My sleep departed from me and the joints of my loins were loosed so that my knees smote the one against the other,so to speak.
I knew nothing of God,the Holy Spirit or the church.Jesus was to me a religious nut who dreamed He was the Son of a supposed God and His name was good for cursing with.
Those Words I read in 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ' haunted me,scared me and just plain nagged and gnawed at me.I could not,for whatever reason,just let them slide away into a fading memory.
For myself,in my beginning with God, at the start of my new life, the Bible spoke for itself.It still does.
We are given at seat at the Kings table,totally on someone elses account and I saw my place as sitting down,shutting my big fat trap and listening to what the King and His court might discuss!
Mighty things,things that I knew not!
The fact that in our hands we hold the very words,the message from the Creator,the cosmic observer,to those created in His image,should make us tremble at the thought that we actually have an extraterrestrial artifact in our possesion.
I can't grasp that so much of christianity seems to try to lessen it somehow,make it subservient to some other supposed authority.That it somehow 'lacks'.
The Words on those pages turned my world upside down.That was 25 years ago.They still do.Maybe to some that might look like I worship the Bible.I do not,any more than I might admire a person through reading their autobiography.The Bible points to it's author and in our great spiritual battle it is the only offensive weapon we have.In that regard our Maker deems it sufficient for He gave us no other.
God bless.
Why go on here? Some of us enjoy the give and take when it's without rancor and we are commanded to be ready to make a defence of our faith when necessary. As to whether anyone changes...well that we don't know but we're still obligated to sow the seeds widely.
Just what is it I'm to “break away” from?
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Anything that contradicts or does not line up with Scripture is not truth, ie it's a lie. Satan's favorite tactic is to get men to disbelieve the WORD. That's how he got Eve to sin, by causing her to question what God had revealed to Adam. *Did God REALLY say....?* has, sadly, been one of his most effective tools down through the ages. We can know that the source of anything that disagrees with Scripture is Satan.
John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
The Bible is, at it's heart, a series of contracts (covenants) between YHWH and Man. Do you REALLY want to claim that any edifice of man has authority over that? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is on it's face?
Most religious people and likely many Christians, have a total misunderstanding of the Law and it's purpose. The Holy Spirit through Paul tells us here....
Galatians 3:24-25 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
It DOES explain how one might suppose to change it at a whim, but you will never convince me of any authority whatsoever to do so.
AMEN!!!!
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
And just how do you KNOW that that *interpretation* of Rev 6:12-17 is the correct one?
And just how do you KNOW that that *interpretation* of Rev 6:12-17 is the correct one?
Go ahead and present your case.
If you think that by posting it repeatedly it gives it credibility or veracity, you are mistaken. Error, no matter how many times it's repeated is still error. It does not become truth with repetition.
The only thing that we can be sure of being true is Scripture itself. Everything else needs to be taken with all due caution. *Prophecies* like that can pretty much be tossed on only a cursory inspection.
“Then, you explain to the person, CYC...why.”
Oh, it has been....often and in detail, which is why I attempt to be civil to all and respectful of none.
“I was trying to say count your change, “you are stuck in
your belief, I am hoping you will change” That’s a sincere
comment.
Then I suggest that is what should be said!
Thanks to Rel. Mod.
There's so much wrong with that it's hard to know where to begin.
Religion does NOT save anyone. True believers know that.
Protestantism is merely a label slapped on those who did not reject the *true faith* but those who recognized the authority and veracity of Scripture and rejected the corruption and immorality and other excesses within Catholicism.
One thing Catholics seems to be pretty good at is failing to recognize and address the fact that Luther did not want or intend to start a new church or denomination. He wanted to get rid of the immorality and corruption which he saw in the Catholic church and get back to the Scripture that the Catholic church CLAIMS IT wrote.
How ironic that the RCC ends up ex-communicating him for wanting to fix the problems within the church.
FWIW, the word *church* is not found in the NT in the Greek either. The word is *assembly*, so the argument against the use of the word *denomination* is invalid.
Prophecy isn't really of any help at all because we have Scripture.
If what the prophecy says contradicts Scripture, we can know its source, that it is of Satan the father of lies, and can be rejected on that basis alone.
If the *prophecy* agrees with Scripture, then it is really not prophecy, it is merely teaching what Scripture already addresses and therefore is redundant and unnecessary. At that point the motives of the person calling themselves a prophet should be called into question.
Also, considering what Scripture teaches about false prophets, one has to wonder what the big attraction is to some people to call themselves prophets.
So tell me.....WHY should we believe those so-called *prophecies* you've been repeatedly posting?
Jesus did away with religion when He died on the cross and NOBODY is saying that anyone is saved by an altar call or that that is how one receives grace.
God LAVISHES His grace on us freely, not in sting little packets based on works we do to earn them.
Ephesians 1:3-14 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
WOW!
Preach it, brother!
Pretty thin gruel that when the rest of the Scriptures are so enlightening. Hopefully stpio can enlarge upon that.
It might have been better said by stpio... *It seems to me that “you are stuck in your belief, I am hoping you will change” *.
That would not be mind reading but an observation expressing stpio's own opinion about how he perceives the situation.
That's how to not make it personal.
Amen metmom.
However,it seems that folks will end up trusting the most what they hear the most.
Faith (trust)cometh by hearing afterall.It seems to follow that what is heard the most is trusted the most.By that I don't necessarily mean intellectually assent to but rather that deeper trust in,or faith in (whatever)that effects the way we view things and the way we think.I think that none of us are totally immune to this but as believers we can at least now "bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ".As free people who have been given all that we need (the Holy Spirit)we will not let our heart,which we do not fully know, rule our thoughts simply because something we have heard over and over again sank down into us without ever being trully vetted.
We examine all things and hold on to the true.
God bless.
Not unrelated at all. You said “rightly divided” and I pointed to a gross error on the part of the RCC in “rightly dividing the word of truth”. I am quite familiar with 2 Tim 2:15 and would simply ask you to show me from scripture where we are taught the bodily assumption of Mary or that she is now the “queen of heaven”.
That was a new one for me also but it fits in with the thinking of the RCs.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
Clearly the reason for Spiritual guidance for those seeking truth was to protect us from the Pharisee type “rules” which the RCC promotes just as Paul was talking about in Acts.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
I can assure you that I will not be hiding under a rock but will be looking up with anticipation and joy at the coming of our Lord and will “meet Him in the air” and that will happen long before the happenings of Revelation 6.
Just using Revelation 6 in reference to true Christians alive today shows ignorance of prophecy.
You must not have this one in your Bible, then:
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.Sounds pretty emphatic to me...Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
AMEN! mitch. That’s a great observation.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.