Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
Scripture is TRUTH because it is God breathed and God is truth and is that by which everything else is compared. There is no greater authority than God and God speaks to us through Scripture, His Word.
His word is powerful because it is truth and truth will demolish lies every time. That's why the first thing Satan did when he tempted Eve was question the word of God given to them with *Did God REALLY say....*?
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Matthew 5:17-20 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Psalm 119:89 Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Ephesians 6:16-18 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Romans 15:4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Why is it you guys don't seem to be able to answer with anything substantive when you figure out we don't subscribe to your favorite presuppositions?
One would think the natural response would be to step back and find common ground to proceed from, rather than offer worthless expressions of incredulity.
Wouldn't that be the proper demonstration of being ready in season and out as Paul did at the Areopagas?
Why is it you guys don't seem to be able to answer with anything substantive when you figure out we don't subscribe to your favorite presuppositions?
One would think the natural response would be to step back and find common ground to proceed from, rather than offer worthless expressions of incredulity.
Wouldn't that be the proper demonstration of being ready in season and out as Paul did at the Areopagas?
Then perhaps you would care to take up my challenge.
Where does the OT tell Simeon he would see the Messiah before he died, because the Scripture tells us, and he is quoted as saying, it came to him by God's word.
Two witnesses in the same passage.
And for Pete's sake, why do you keep quoting Scriptures you know are ineffectual for what you wish them to accomplish? i.e. convince those who don't agree with your interpretation of the correctness of your interpretation.
On these grounds....
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Matthew 5:17-2017 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 26:27-29 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.
Leviticus 17:14 For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Acts 15:13-20 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 “‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, 17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:22-29 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood,and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Jesus Himself said that He came to FULFILL the Law. If He had given them the cup intending them to drink it thereby drinking His blood, He would have caused them to sin and He would have then not fulfilled the Law and would have then been incapable of being the perfect sinless atonement for our sins.
Because there's always the hope that some day the spiritual blindness will be lifted and the Holy Spirit will be permitted to illumine your mind and you will see the truth.
In addition, there are those lurkers who are reading and need to read the truth of Scripture to counter the lies continually spewed forth concerning the RCC and what it claims.
Isaiah 55:10-11 10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 2:1-16 1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Moses spent several periods of 40 days in supernatural communion with God. Then he taught the Jewish people for 40 years before he wrote scrolls for them to have a permanent ‘Cliff Notes’ of what he had taught them.
The Church, claiming to be the successor of Jesus (who it is claimed succeeded Moses) follows the pattern of Moses: First the teaching, then the written reminder.
Really? Jesus didn't seem to think so.
Matthew 4:1-11 4 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
Utterly unrelated, but I understand why you would try to get onto another subject...
But that's wrong. First it was Jesus doing the teaching and then HE promised the Holy Spirit who would bring to their remembrance what He taught.
The *Church* had nothing to do with it.
John 14:25-26 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Yes, I understand the argument.
I’m merely pointing out that the claims of the Church are far more logical than they are sometimes given credit for.
It is not a coincidence that intellectuals, such as Newt Gingrich, Laura Ingraham, Robert Bork, Mortimer Adler, etc. became converts to Roman catholicism.
I understand English extremely well. What is it you think I'm NOT getting? That the Catholic Church doesn't use Scripture to prove the doctrines it espouses? Just take a look at your own catechism some time and see where they try to do just that. Take a look at the various posts of Catholics on this and other threads where the subject of Scriptural integrity and authority is discussed. You will see exactly what I am talking about. Without Scripture - where the words and teachings of Jesus Christ both while here on earth and in heaven are recorded - try to prove the assertions of the Catholic Church about practically anything it states as dogma. That is my point. Though I disagree with many of its interpretations, it is disingenuous to suggest the Catholic Church does not need Scripture to back up its claims.
If even Jesus Christ proved his authority and purpose by appealing to Holy Scripture - He said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39) - then what possible justification could the Catholic Church present that makes them above Scripture?
“Where does the OT tell Simeon he would see the Messiah before he died, because the Scripture tells us, and he is quoted as saying, it came to him by God’s word.”
The OT doesn’t tell us since this was a special revelation to Simeon by holy spirit.
What that has to do with my statement about the Catholic Church proclaiming Holy Scripture is the Word of God, I don't know. But to humor you, I'll try to answer you.
We first hear about a man named Simeon in Luke 2, when Joseph and Mary present the Christ child at the temple to dedicate him to the Lord as was the custom.
Luke 2:25-35 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel,* and the Holy Spirit was on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him. Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling(***) and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”
* The "consolation of Israel" is spoken of in Isaiah 52:9:
** The "glory of your people Israel" is spoken of in Isaiah 42:6
And Isaiah 49:6:
*** Simeon saying, "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel" is a reference to Isaiah 8:14, which says:
So, to answer your question, this guy Simeon sounds like a very righteous and devout Jew who knew his Scripture well, was looking for the coming Messiah, the Holy Spirit was "on" him and, as Luke said, "It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah." (Luke 2:26) See, not only did Simeon KNOW to look for the Messiah because of Scripture, but he also had a special revelation - a personal revelation - that he WOULD NOT die until he saw the Messiah. The Holy Spirit confirmed within his heart that Jesus was the Messiah and he knew that he could die in peace having seen the chosen one of Israel.
First and foremost the Father explicitly commands us against cannibalism and the drinking of blood... So your interpretation must needfully be incorrect, to say the least.
Secondly, YHWH instructs us *not* to do as the heathen does and claim it is for HIM. He HATES it. It is an abomination to Him.
Transubstantiation is an heathen practice.
If one proposes that one's church trumps the very words of YHWH, all that can be left is incredulity.... One cannot step back from that and find common ground, because if you truly believe that, then there is no common ground.
The Bible is, at it's heart, a series of contracts (covenants) between YHWH and Man. Do you REALLY want to claim that any edifice of man has authority over that? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is on it's face?
It DOES explain how one might suppose to change it at a whim, but you will never convince me of any authority whatsoever to do so.
Though I appreciate your respectful answers, I cannot help but think that your explanations for exalting the Catholic Church above the Holy Scripture - the word of God - is not only quite wrong but alarmingly ignorant of history. Maybe the only history about the Bible you know is the Roman Catholic version of it, but I expected better of one who claims to be a student of history. To say that the Catholic Church and tradition preceded Scripture by 300 years is false. Though you refer to a "canon", meaning a collection of the books that make up the Bible, you must know that ALL the New Testament books were written not later than 95 A.D. (John's Revelation). Most of the epistles written by Paul were completed and copies were disseminated and taught throughout the Christian world within the first few decades after the resurrection.
If by "tradition" you are speaking of the teachings of the truths taught by Jesus Christ while he was on earth those three years of his ministry, then I certainly agree that the Apostles and disciples taught these same truths to the new believers and those SAME teachings were written down by the leading of the Holy Spirit so that they are even preserved for us today, two thousand years later.
An "official" canon was NOT needed simply because the writings were given to the church and personally verified by the Apostles. What we have in the New Testament today is the SAME as what those first and second century believers had. Naturally, those validated books agreed with the Christian church teachings because they came with the authority of the Apostles, themselves. If any doctrine was taught that went against the Scripture, it would be known. You are "perplexed" when Protestants say Scripture contradicts the Roman Catholic Church because only the church's authority gave it credibility? It is more like where the Catholic Church has veered away from the truths of Scripture that we criticize. The Roman Catholic Church HAS contradicted Scripture in many major doctrines of the faith - even the Orthodox Church contends so - and it has progressively changed what was formerly taught as truth. Its explanation for these changes is "development" or "evolving" understanding of certain doctrines but I read them as perverting the clarity of the gospel among others.
You seriously believe, "Without the Church the Bible would be no more credible and no more widely accepted than the Encyclopedia of Lost and Rejected Scriptures."? How is it then that your own catechism states that Scripture is divinely-inspired and a gift from Almighty God? How is it that Scripture - which is truth EVEN if NOBODY believed it - can hold such a subordinate place in this kind of philosophy? I get it that this MUST be how Scripture has to be seen to rationalize the clear contradictions that exist between what the Bible says and some of the current RCC's dogma, but I am flabbergasted to see it unashamedly stated on an open forum such as this is. I sincerely hope those who read these words understand that the Word of God is NOT in subjection to the Catholic Church - it is NOT dependent upon the Catholic Church's say so that the Bible can be believed and counted upon to relay the truths of God to a lost and dying world. The Gospel is the POWER of God to salvation to everyone that believes and you don't need a church's okay to believe.
CYC to metmom:
“It is noteworthy that one of the gifts of the spirit Paul listed was the ability of some individuals in the congregations to distinguish between true and false writings. (1 Cor, 12:10)”
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The arguing will go on forever until God personally sets
everyone straight. That’s why no one will speak or reply
to the prophecy about Revelation 6:12-17. I must of
posted it three times.
“I will not hear”, “I will not see”...the silence is painful.
Thanks for your reply on what you truly meant by the above.
All I was concerned with from the start was your one quote. I truly thought you were defending private judgment.
Protestants usually give another reason to defend private judgment (PIOS).
God did not give each person the gift to interpret Scripture, you would see thousands of personal opinions. It would result in division. Terrible, terrible fruit.
“The arguing will go on forever until God personally sets
everyone straight. That’s why no one will speak or reply
to the prophecy about Revelation 6:12-17. I must of
posted it three times.”
If I thought it had bearing on the question at hand I would have but I really don’t see any reason to post it without further explanation.
“If you had said “I believe you want” or “It seems you want” you would be expressing your own mind and not reading the mind of another Freeper.
Also, for a statement to be “making it personal” it must be speaking of another Freeper, personally - not as a group.
Finally, the Religion Forum guideline is that when one Freeper in a sidebar has been warned, all Freepers involved in the sidebar should consider themselves warned as well.”
~ ~ ~
Thanks for explaining but I am slow, I still don’t quite
get it. And not to argue. To appear to be reading someone’s mind is a no, no but outright or veiled personal insults are okay? No one can read anyone’s mind but God and a few mystics in history.
I was trying to say count your change, “you are stuck in
your belief, I am hoping you will change” That’s a sincere
comment.
Then, you explain to the person, CYC...why.
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