Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
Well, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are traditions, too.
It just boggles the mind that God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture is just not enough, or even good enough, for some people.
But they’ll latch onto anything men say in a heartbeat, no matter how absurd or improbable.
I feel safe in saying none of us rely on them as a basis of faith.
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 2 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Without the Spirit of God in a person, there is no way to possibly be able to correctly interpret Scripture. Those who claim that no one can understand it show that they don't have the Spiritual understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit.
And with that gold nugget of truth, they are not even qualified to discuss scripture, as we do see...
Incoming in
3.....,
2.......,
1.......
With that in mind I’ll lay the keyboard aside for a bit of rest. later.
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic, telling one group of believers one interpretation and another a different interpretation? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group to baptize and another not to, one group to baptize entire families including infants and another that baptism is not necessary at all. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group to share in the Real Presence, another to have only a symbolic last supper, and yet another group to not even bother? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group that they are elect and immunized against the consequences of all future sins and calls others to repentance and contrition? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit calls all Christians to unity but promotes a recipe that has resulted in 30,000 doctrinally different churches? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit spoke a different Gospel meaning to Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Koresh, Zwingli, and King Henry VIII than He did to St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Irenaus, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Blessed John Cardinal Newman? I don't. That is why Jesus left us a visible Church with a governing structure and a teaching authority to facilitate the unity we are called to.
"But they’ll latch onto anything men say in a heartbeat, no matter how absurd or improbable."
Things are only absurd and improbable in the absence of faith. When your ones personal experience, education, and reason trump ones faith the only thing that is surprising is that there aren't as many Protestant denominations as there are Protestants.
Peace be to you.
Ma used to say, "God gave you a brain; use it." Rome says, "God gave us the brains and special privilege also; obey us."
The Bible is written in plain language and is written to the reader, not some self appointed, special group. God's gift to every individual of a rational mind and the free will to exercise that mind for judgment and decision making purposes belongs to the individual to use as per the image it was created in. It does not belong to any particular self appointed group, especially one that claims special powers and relationships with God, as had the Gnostics.
The Keys to the Kingdom were given to every individual. The keys are the gifts of rational mind and free will that enable each individual to make their judgments and decisions. That includes the decision to forgive transgressions, which the Church likewise claims has absolute and exclusive jurisdiction.
The judgments and decisions are equivalent to the choice of door. No special man, or special group was given the powers of decision over any other individual(s) regarding the choice of door, that includes the Church's claim that Peter alone was given the Keys. If Romes interest is the salvation of others, then they should use their gifts to clarify and influence others, not to engage in gnosticism, perpetual mysteries and power games.
I'll ask you to answer the same questions I asked Metmom in #239 (above).
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic, telling one group of believers one interpretation and another a different interpretation?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group to baptize and another not to, one group to baptize entire families including infants and another that baptism is not necessary at all?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group to share in the Real Presence, another to have only a symbolic last supper, and yet another group to not even bother?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group that they are elect and immunized against the consequences of all future sins and calls others to repentance and contrition?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit calls all Christians to unity but promotes a recipe that has resulted in 30,000 doctrinally different churches?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit spoke a different Gospel meaning to Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Koresh, Zwingli, and King Henry VIII than He did to St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Irenaus, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Blessed John Cardinal Newman?
I'll add one more and ask do you believe that the Holy Spirit does not now and never did speak to or through Catholics and the Catholic Church?
Peace be with you.
#239 should read #329
The Holy Spirit will not do your thinking for you. What God said regarding this matter is written in the Gospel. Folks must use the gifts God gave them to analyze and understand what was said. What God has said, was said already and it will never change, so there is no point in repeatig it. Likewise, folks must analyze what other men say, then judge, decide and act accordingly.
"Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group to baptize and another not to, one group to baptize entire families including infants and another that baptism is not necessary at all?"
Baptism is symbolic. One washes with water to cleanse. The Holy Spirit "washes" with forgiveness. Note though that the washing is conditional on what judgments and decisions the Baptisee has made especially regarding their consideration and value of the concept and act of forgiveness-which underlies the very nature of whether, or not one is truely repentant. Note also that Paul, Augustine and their followers invented and gave folks original sin, so there is no point in "washing it away". It was never there, as Ezekiel so clearly points out in Ezekiel 18 and God Himself comments on in John 9.
"Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group to share in the Real Presence, another to have only a symbolic last supper, and yet another group to not even bother?"
The Body and Blood of Christ is symbolic. John 6:63 "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[or are Spirit] and life. Note that just as the bread and wine are not transformed into flesh and blood, they are neither transformed into words, or understanding.
"Do you believe that the Holy Spirit tells one group that they are elect and immunized against the consequences of all future sins and calls others to repentance and contrition?
There is no immunity, nor is their selection, or puppetry. Each person is responsable for their destiny, according to their own judgment and decision.
"Do you believe that the Holy Spirit calls all Christians to unity but promotes a recipe that has resulted in 30,000 doctrinally different churches?
The keyword is call, not order.
"Do you believe that the Holy Spirit spoke a different Gospel meaning to Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Koresh, Zwingli, and King Henry VIII than He did to St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Irenaus, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Blessed John Cardinal Newman?"
The 4 Gospels are written, so that everyone given God's gifts can read them. The Gospels themselves are a gift, which contain the information necessary to determine who is a St. Those are the folks whose judgments and decisions evidence that they value the same things God does and not those folks that have been annointed and given the title by "the organization".
"I'll add one more and ask do you believe that the Holy Spirit does not now and never did speak to or through Catholics and the Catholic Church?"
“Thank you and good night.”
~ ~ ~
Nice, the same to you. Remember our discussion. This
thread could go on to 10,000 posts with no one agreeing
about the faith.
Pray, the grace given through prayer and the divine Great
Warning will be the two things to bring people to the same belief.
God already spoke. He came here to do just that. What any man says, is said according to their own judgments and decisions. If any judgment and decision is in essence the same as God's, then it is, otherwise it is not. God does not coerce men, so that no one is used as a puppet, or forced to do things against their will. God pointed out that Moses gave laws according to the judgment and decision of Moses, not God. See Matt 19:8.
Exactly! Not all will have the same gifts. My point is not to argue any of these single points of doctrine from the list, my point was to introduce a sample of the areas of doctrine that those who reject the Catholic Church and its teaching authority disagree on as proof that the concept of a self interpreting Bible is simply not fact. People of good will and sincere beliefs disagree on the meaning of Scripture to the point of having over 30,000 separate denominations and that number is growing. But even if that number were only 33 the point would still be made. Even if one concedes the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which I don't, absent a teaching authority or the equivalent of a theological Supreme Court to decide the original intent and pronounce the application of the original principle to a current practice or situation we have the antithesis of unity. Do you think that is what we are called to?
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. - Ephesians 4:11-13
Thank you for the thoughtful response. Peace be with you.
I couldn’t type in To: my non-Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.
Posting an EXCERPT, the first words in a Protestant message today. What “change” is Our Lord talking about? The thing He has been preparing Protestants and Catholics for years. It’s not far off. Believe what God shows you in the Great Warning. Begin today, start reading the Protestant and Catholic messages from Heaven. See the Protestant link
and a couple of Catholic links after the message...
SUSAN O’MARRA
Transcript of Prophetic Word Given at the SOG Church:
May 24, 2012
My Children, I have been preparing you for this day and hour. You know this, for I have told you many times, but many still do not yield to Me. Many still do not grasp this great reality. For you are the generation in which I will bring great, and sudden, and deep change. For you are the ones that have said to Me, “Lord, come.” And I say to you, My Children, I have come, and I am in your midst. But you must open wide to Me. You must yield to Me completely. You must allow Me to bring change. You must allow Me to add to you those things I want to add, and to remove those things from you I want to remove. For as you move with Me, you will shift greatly and speedily, and completely. I will move you day by day, and you will look back and you will say, “Surely I did not know it would be this way.” For it shall be My way, saith the Lord. It shall be My way, and it shall be according to what I have written, and according to what I have told you would come. But do you understand the things that will be done? Do you understand the changes that will be in the heavens? The changes that will be in the earth? And the changes that will be in the church?...
Yahoo Groups - Seers 2
http://www.catholicbinder.com/
part of the message...
To Susan, the Protestant messenger today.
“For you are the generation in which I will bring great, and sudden, and deep change. For you are the ones that have said to Me, “Lord, come.” And I say to you, My Children, I have come, and I am in your midst. But you must open wide to Me. You must yield to Me completely. You must allow Me to bring change.”
Think about how God can change you suddenly.
Jesus is in your midst now, present in the Eucharist but you must believe it so be open to Him, to what He is going to show you. Dear Protestants, Jesus desires you believe Him completely, all that He has revealed.
SUSAN O’MARRA
Transcript of Prophetic Word Given at the SOG Church:
May 24, 2012
My Children, I have been preparing you for this day and hour. You know this, for I have told you many times, but many still do not yield to Me. Many still do not grasp this great reality. For you are the generation in which I will bring great, and sudden, and deep change. For you are the ones that have said to Me, “Lord, come.” And I say to you, My Children, I have come, and I am in your midst. But you must open wide to Me. You must yield to Me completely. You must allow Me to bring change. You must allow Me to add to you those things I want to add, and to remove those things from you I want to remove. For as you move with Me, you will shift greatly and speedily, and completely. I will move you day by day, and you will look back and you will say, “Surely I did not know it would be this way.” For it shall be My way, saith the Lord. It shall be My way, and it shall be according to what I have written, and according to what I have told you would come. But do you understand the things that will be done? Do you understand the changes that will be in the heavens? The changes that will be in the earth? And the changes that will be in the church?...
Yahoo Groups - Seers 2
http://www.catholicbinder.com/
~ ~ ~
Wow! I just read the words to follow in the second paragraph.
The rejection of the Eucharist because Protestants cannot
confect it. Jesus is bringing everyone to one end time
and one belief but it makes you cry, His words about people
will still say NO.
Do not be one of them. I paste the second paragraph.
~ ~ ~
Our Lord:
I say to you, look in the mirror, My Children, and see. See My reality! For I am revealed to you through the mirror of My Word. And if you will look into the mirror of My Word and ask Me to open it unto you, I shall open it new. I shall disclose to you those things that are true. Those things that have waited for their revealing, THAT OTHER GENERATIONS DID NOT WANT OR DESIRE, AND COULD NOT RECEIVE TO GO HIGHER. I say to you, My Children, you shall conceive, because you shall believe, and those that believe shall cleave to My Word, and My Word shall do it. For I am watching over My Word to perform it, saith the Lord. I am doing it in a manner and in a way that most of My People will not do and obey. I say to you, few, will look into My mirror and see My way. Because many do not yet want My way, but I cry out to you, My Church, everyday. Want My way! Look My way! Listen My way! Speak My way! Live My way! Hear My way! Obey My way! And everyday, more and more open to Me. I am your reality!...
It appears the author at catholicbinder has gone from one error to another by substituting a tradition for God’s Word of truth. He writes:
“And here I am, now a converted Catholic. I came to realize that some souls that are severely troubled, such as my own, are given by Jesus to his Mother to help lead us back to Him. And for me that was the only way I would ever had found Him fully. For anyone who reads this work, I pray that the Holy Virgin Mary may also lead you as she leads all her children to the altar of her divine son where he is daily called down by the hands of the priest into the bread and wine in fulfillment of his promise that if you eat of His body and drink of His blood, you will have eternal life.”
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