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To: BroJoeK; Mrs. Don-o; ReligiousLibertyTV; RobbyS
some mutations will increase an individual's chance of survival and reproduction, and so the species can begin to evolve again.

Yes. That is the belief -- in the superstitious sense. No one has observed that, no one has reproduced that in a sufficiently complex species, no one has really explained how two birth defects on the same kind would occur in two specimens within the mating range, but we believe it anyway.

Evolution as a scientific proposition is junk.

Now, miracles happen. That God can make it so two turkeys of the opposite sex would spontaneously mutate into bald eagles, -- or, to that matter into sabertooth tigers, -- and live happily ever after, -- that I can believe because I am Christian who evidences miracles on a regular basis. Not because of some ape with a science degree who thought it up.

116 posted on 05/16/2012 5:28:11 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

—— Evolution as a scientific proposition is junk.——

The argument against the theory is simple: no mechanism and no fossils. What’s left?

The evidence from fossil record is in, overwhelmingly demonstrating STASIS in species. Creatures exit the fossil record the way they went in, tens of thousands of years earlier, contradicting the change predicted by the theory of gradual evolution.

Regarding macro-evolution, there exists no plausible mechanism.

So how did we get here? God knows. I don’t. We can reject evolution as a scientific theory without being able to offer an alternative explanation.”I don’t know” is an acceptable answer when it’s true.


117 posted on 05/16/2012 5:49:17 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (hViva Christo Rey!)
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To: annalex
annalex: "Yes. That is the belief -- in the superstitious sense.
No one has observed that, no one has reproduced that in a sufficiently complex species, no one has really explained how two birth defects on the same kind would occur in two specimens within the mating range, but we believe it anyway."

You're putting a lot of your own definitions into your words, "that" and "it", so I suspect your definitions have nothing to do with actual science.
And your allegation that science equates to "superstition" is baseless.

In reality, "descent with modifications" has been observed and confirmed innumerable times, making it a fact.
That is the method by which, since time immemorial, people have created new varieties / breeds of plants and animals, and by which "natural selection" over longer periods creates new breeds, subspecies and eventually species.

So both "decent with modifications" and "natural selection" have been observed and confirmed beyond dispute.
They are not "superstition", they are facts.
And since they are the two components of evolution, that makes evolution a fact.

Of course, folks such as yourself become all agitated over the alleged distinction between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution".

Indeed, when I first began posting on FR evolution threads, most Creationists claimed that "micro-evolution" is acceptable theologically, but that "macro-evolution" is not.
These days, it seems that some posters claim even "micro-evolution" never happens.
To me that speaks of mankind's unlimited ability to close our eyes to reality.

I say that "micro" and "macro" evolution are the same things, simply extended over longer time periods.
What, after all, is the physical difference between a "race," a "variety", a "breed", a "sub-species" and "species"?
Is it not simply a matter of word definitions?
By scientific convention, we consider a "sub-species" to have become a new "species" when it can no longer breed with its parent populations.

Zebras, for example, have three species which do not interbreed in nature, but can sometimes be forced in captivity.
And each zebra species has subspecies which sometimes can and do interbreed, given the opportunity.
Point is: if it turned out that a certain "sub-species" could not interbreed with others of the same species, it would no longer be called a "sub-species", by convention we would call it a new species.

In nature, fossil records and DNA analyses show such changes typically take millions of years, but human directed breeding programs, especially of agricultural plants, have produced new varieties which can no longer fertilize their original species.
What these breeding programs demonstrate is that "micro-evolution" can happen very rapidly indeed, under the right conditions.

Point is: the "precise moment" when one sub-species in nature can no longer effectively interbreed with another, and so by our definitions becomes a new "species" -- that "precise moment" is no "moment" at all, it normally takes a very long time.

annalex: "Now, miracles happen.
That God can make it so two turkeys of the opposite sex would spontaneously mutate into bald eagles..."

Of course He could, and possibly that's just what He did.
But if that is what God did, He left no traces for us to admire scientifically His handiwork.
Indeed, just the opposite -- the evidence He left for scientists to examine clearly shows turkeys and bald eagles descending separately from common ancestors who lived many tens of millions of years ago.

And seriously, you have to ask yourself: if God didn't want us to accept science's theories, then why did He leave so much evidence laying around to support them?

;-)

118 posted on 05/16/2012 9:45:27 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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