Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

12 Reasons Why Supersessionism/Replacement Theology Is Not A Biblical Doctrine
Theological Studies ^ | Michael Vlach

Posted on 04/30/2012 7:51:06 PM PDT by wmfights

"I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough of it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this."

--Charles H. Spurgeon

"To argue that God replaced Israel with the church is to depart from an enormous body of biblical evidence."

--Walter C. Kaiser, Jr.

Supersessionism is the view that the New Testament Church supersedes, replaces, or fulfills the nation Israel’s place and role in the plan of God. I am convinced that supersessionism / replacement theology is an unbiblical doctrine that violates clear statements in both the Old and New testaments that teach and affirm a national salvation and restoration of Israel. Below are twelve reasons why supersessionism violates the biblical witness:

1. The Old Testament explicitly teaches the restoration of the nation Israel.

a. Deuteronomy 30:1-6: Israel would experience dispersion because of disobedience but would one day be saved as a nation and experience restoration to its land.

b. Jeremiah 30, 31, and 33: This prediction of the New Covenant promises a restoration of Israel that includes spiritual blessings and physical blessings.

c. Ezekiel 36–37 This passage promises the future salvation and restoration of the nation Israel to its land.

d. Amos 9:11-15

e. Zephaniah 3:14-20

f. Zechariah 12–14

g. NOTE 1: Even if the NT never discussed the restoration of Israel, the many explicit texts about Israel’s restoration in the OT give enough reason to believe in the restoration of Israel.

h. NOTE 2: Since the Abrahamic (Gen. 12:1-3; 15:18-21) and New Covenants (Jer. 31) are eternal and unconditional covenants we should expect God to fulfill these covenants with Israel, the people with whom the covenants were made. John Murray is correct that Israel’s restoration is linked to the covenants of the Old Testament: "Thus the effect is that the future restoration of Israel is certified by nothing less than the certainty belonging to covenantal institution."

2. The Old Testament explicitly promises the perpetuity of the nation Israel (see Jer. 31:35-37).

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day, And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also shall cease From being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD" (Jer. 31:35-37).

Have you seen the sun, moon or stars today? If so, you can know that the nation Israel still has a place in God’s plan.

3. The New Testament reaffirms the Old Testament expectation of a salvation and restoration of Israel.

a. Matthew 19:28 -- Apostles to rule over 12 tribes of Israel.

According to E. P. Sanders, Matt 19:28 "confirms the view that Jesus looked for the restoration of Israel."

b. Matthew 23:37-39 / Luke 13:34-35-- Israel one day will accept her Messiah. Donald Senior states, "In Matthew’s perspective, the rejection of Jesus by the leaders is indeed a grave sin, one that brings divine judgment. Yet the story of God’s relationship to Israel is not concluded, and the day will come when Jerusalem will again receive its Messiah with shouts of praise."

c. Luke 21:24-- Times of the gentiles will come to an end. J. Bradley Chance states, "Close examination of L. 21:24b,c provides a strong hint that Luke did foresee the restoration of Jerusalem."

d. Luke 22:30-- Apostles to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel.

e. Acts 1:3-7-- Apostles believed in a restoration of the nation Israel after 40 days of kingdom instruction from Jesus. Scot McKnight states: "Since Jesus was such a good teacher, we have every right to think that the impulsive hopes of his audience were on target. This is not to say that they, at times, drew incorrect references or came to inaccurate conclusions about time or about content, but it is to admit that Jesus believed in an imminent realization of the kingdom to restore Israel and that he taught this with clarity."

f. Acts 3:19-21 -- Restoration is preached to the leaders of Israel.

g. Romans 11:26-27-- Salvation of "all Israel" will occur in accordance with the New Covenant promises given to Israel in the Old Testament.

i. C.E.B. Cranfield: "It is only where the Church persists in refusing to learn this message, where it secretly-perhaps quite unconsciously-believes that its own existence is based on human achievement, and so fails to understand God's mercy to itself, that it is unable to believe in God's mercy for still unbelieving Israel, and so entertains the ugly and unscriptural notion that God has cast off His people Israel and simply replaced it by the Christian Church. These three chapters [Rom. 9-11] emphatically forbid us to speak of the Church as having once and for all taken the place of the Jewish people."

ii. Jonathan Edwards: "Nothing is more certainly foretold than this national conversion of the Jews in Romans 11."

iii. In his comments on Rom 11:26–27, Ernst Käsemann rightly states that "Christianity is already living in the new covenant" while "Israel will begin to do so only at the parousia."

4. The New Testament explicitly states that the Old Testament promises and covenants to Israel are still the possession of Israel even during this church age and even while the nation is currently in a state of unbelief (see Romans 9:3b-4).

"my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises" (Rom. 9:3b-4).

5. The New Testament indicates that God is faithful to Israel because of His promises to the patriarchs of Israel (Romans 11:28).

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Rom.11:28).

6. The New Testament indicates that Israel’s election/calling is irrevocable (Romans 11:29; see also Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

a. Jürgen Moltmann: "There can be no question of God’s having finally rejected the people of his choice—he would then have to reject his own election (11.29)—and of his then having sought out instead another people, the church. Israel’s promises remain Israel’s promises. They have not been transferred to the church. Nor does the church push Israel out of its place in the divine history. In the perspective of the gospel, Israel has by no means become ‘like all the nations.’"

b. Wolfhart Pannenberg: "How could Christians be certain of their own comparatively new membership in the circle of God’s elect if God for his part did not remain faithful to his election in spite of Israel’s unbelief? This is the apostle’s point when he advocates the inviolability of the election of the Jewish people (11:29; cf. 9:6). He has in mind also Christian assurance of election."

c. The more one believes in the sovereignty of God especially as it relates to election, the more one should be committed to a salvation/restoration of Israel based on God’s election of this people.

7. The New Testament never uses the term "Israel" for those who are not ethnic Jews. Thus, the church is never called "Israel."

a. The title "Israel" is used seventy-three times and always refers to ethnic Jews: The vast majority refer to national, ethnic Israel. A few refer specifically to Jewish believers who are ethnic Jews.

b. The New Testament still consistently refers to national Israel as "Israel" even after the establishment of the church (Acts 3:12; 4:10; 5:21, 31, 35; 21:28).

c. The book of Acts maintains a distinction between Israel and the church. In Acts, both Israel and the church exist simultaneously. "Israel" is used twenty times and ekklesia (church) nineteen times, yet the two groups are always kept distinct.

8. Supersessionists have failed to show that the New Testament identifies the church as "Israel."

a. Romans 9:6 – Believing Jews are those who are the true spiritual Israel. As William Sanday and Arthur C. Headlam state: "But St. Paul does not mean here to distinguish a spiritual Israel (i.e. the Christian Church) from the fleshly Israel, but to state that the promises made to Israel might be fulfilled even if some of his descendants were shut out from them. What he states is that not all the physical descendants of Jacob are necessarily inheritors of the Divine promises implied in the sacred name Israel."

b. Galatians 6:16 – Paul is referring to Christian Jews in his reference to the "Israel of God." Paul scolded the Judaizers who said circumcision was necessary for salvation, but he acknowledges those Jews in Galatia who had not followed the Judaizers in their error. These Christian Jews are the true "Israel of God." Ronald E. Diprose: "Galatians 6:16 is insufficient grounds on which to base an innovative theological concept such as understanding the Church to be the new and/or true Israel."

c. Romans 11:26 – There is very little chance that "Israel" here refers to the church, something even many supersessionists acknowledge. Like the other ten references to "Israel" in Romans 9–11, Israel in 11:26 refers to ethnic Israel.

9. Supersessionists have failed to show that the New Testament reinterprets or alters the original OT prophecies in regard to Israel. The alleged "NT Priority" approach of Supersessionism is really ‘structural supersessionism’—a hermeneutic that does not allow the OT passages to speak to the issues they address.

a. How can the NT reinterpret or alter the OT expectation for Israel when the NT actually reaffirms the OT expectation? (see point #3 above).

b. Hebrews 8:8-13 and Jeremiah 31:

i. The Old Testament never indicated that the New Covenant would only be for the nation Israel. Isaiah uses the New Covenant concept of "sprinkling" in regard to salvation in Isaiah 52:15.

ii. Paul quotes New Covenant passages in Romans 11:27 to show that the nation Israel will be saved (see Rom. 11:26). Thus, even after the church began Paul sees Israel as still related to the New Covenant.

iii. The purpose of Hebrews 8 is not to address the issue of who is and is not the people of God. Hebrews 8 is directly addressing the superiority of the New Covenant over the Mosaic Covenant, not whether the church is now the true Israel.

iv. Only the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant are mentioned in Hebrews 8:8-13. If the New Covenant were being fulfilled in its entirety we should expect the physical blessings of the New Covenant to be mentioned as being fulfilled with the church. The New Testament never links the church with the physical blessings of the New Covenant.

v. It is best to conclude that the church is participating in the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant while the full eschatological fulfillment of the New Covenant will take place with Israel in the millennium.

c. Acts 15:13-18 and Amos 9:11-15

i. The main point of the quotation of Amos 9 in Acts 15 is to show that Gentiles becoming the people of God is consistent with or agrees with what the OT prophets like Amos predicted. It is not discussing the complete fulfillment of the Davidic kingdom or calling the church Israel.

ii. Discussion of Israel’s place in the plan of God is not even the focus of Acts 15.

iii. Acts 15 says "agree" not "fulfill."

iv. William D. Barrick: "Note, first of all, that James never says that Amos 9 is ‘fulfilled.’ Secondly, James’ reasoning is that the Gospel should continue to go out to the Gentiles because God included them in his redemptive plan according to Amos 9. Amos 9 mentions Gentiles as recipients of God’s kingdom blessings, so how could the early church ever take action to exclude them?"

10. Supersessionists have failed to show that unity between Jews and Gentiles in the church rules out a future restoration of the nation Israel.

a. Ephesians 2:11–22 shows that Gentiles who used to be far from God have now been brought near God because of Christ. Thus, the soteriological status of believing Gentiles has changed. They now share with Israel in Israel’s covenants and promises but they do not become Israel.

b. Believing Gentiles cannot be incorporated into Israel because Paul says they are now part of a new structure—the new man.

c. Howard Taylor: "Superficial logic has continued to argue that there is no more uniqueness for the Jew and physical Israel. Since it is said Christ has broken down the barrier between Jew and Gentile [Eph. 2:11–18], Israel’s election is finished. But this is not the logic of the New Testament. Although there is only one way of salvation for both Jew and Gentile, the New Testament teaches that the Jewish people do still have a unique place in the historical working out of God’s redemption of the world in Christ.

d. Rom 11:17–24 stresses that Gentiles are now related to the promises of God. Thus, there is a soteriological unity between believing Jews and Gentiles. But it does not indicate that the church is now the true Israel. There is a difference between saying that Gentiles participate with Israel in Israel’s covenants and claiming that believing Gentiles become Israel. Gentiles are partakers of the covenants not takerovers. This passage does not rule out a future role for national Israel or indicate that the church is now Israel.

11. Israelite language applied to believing Gentiles does not mean the church is Israel.

a. 1 Peter 2:9–10 and Romans 9:24-26 – Yes, language used of Israel in the Old Testament is used of believing Gentiles in the New Testament. But similarity with Israel does not mean identification with Israel. There are occasions in Scripture when "Israel" imagery is applied to non-Israelites without these non-Israelites becoming Israel. Isa 19:24–25, for instance, predicts that Egypt would someday be called "my people." Yet, the context makes clear that Egypt is distinct from Israel since Egypt is mentioned alongside "Israel my inheritance." So, even in the Old Testament it was predicted that non-Israelites would someday carry some of the titles of Israel without becoming identified as Israel.

b. J. Ramsey Michaels says, "Nowhere in 1 Peter are the readers addressed as a new Israel or a new people of God, as if to displace the Jewish community."

c. Galatians 3:7, 29 The New Testament teaches that believing Gentiles are the seed of Abraham but this does not mean that believing Gentiles are Israel. The concept of "seed of Abraham" is used in several different ways in the New Testament. First, it can refer to those who are biological descendants of Abraham. Second, it can refer to the Messiah, who is the unique individual seed of Abraham. Third, it can refer to the righteous remnant of Israel (cf. Isa 41:8 with Rom 9:6). Fourth, it can be used in a spiritual sense for believing Jews and Gentiles (Gal 3:29). John Feinberg states, "no sense (spiritual especially) is more important than any other, and that no sense cancels out the meaning and implications of the other senses." Thus, the application of the titles "sons of Abraham" or "seed of Abraham" to believing Gentiles does not mean that believing Gentiles are spiritual Jews or part of Israel.

d. Galatians 3:7-8 links the Gentiles being "sons of Abraham" with the part of the Abrahamic Covenant that predicted that "all the nations of the earth shall be blessed."

12. New Testament prophecy refers to Israel, thus indicating that God’s plan for Israel is alive.

a. Revelation 7:4-8 – all the tribes of Israel are mentioned.

b. Matthew 24:15ff.

i. The abomination of desolation is clearly related to the Jewish temple.

ii. Jesus tells the residence of Israel what to do in the Tribulation Period.

c. Paul refers to the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

d. If the church is now Israel why do NT prophecies refer to ethnic Israel?

In conclusion, Ronald Diprose is right when he states that in order for supersessionism to qualify as a biblical doctrine there needs to be "positively, passages which clearly teach it and negatively, no passages which actually exclude it." On both counts, supersessionism fails. The New Testament does not call the church "Israel," and nowhere does the New Testament state that the nation of Israel has been permanently rejected by God. Various texts such as Matt 19:28; 23:37–39; Luke 13:35; 21:24; 22:30; and Romans 11 refute supersessionism in that they teach or reaffirm the Old Testament expectation of a restoration of Israel. Thus, we agree with Kaiser when he says, "To argue that God replaced Israel with the church is to depart from an enormous body of biblical evidence."


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: replacementtheology; supersessionism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-109 next last
To: GiovannaNicoletta
LOL!!!

I'd love to know why you continually set yourself up to be shot out of the water.

I know I'm wasting my time, but let's see you do a point-by-point, Scripturally-supported, factual refutation of the original article that that response is attached to. Oh, and you'll have to, for the moment, act like you don't believe that the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD.

I can't wait to see this.

Excuse me? Did you even read what I wrote?

Oh, and you'll have to, for the moment, act like you don't believe that the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD.

My position does not require that, and I don't hold to it.

If you're having trouble with making the necessary distinctions, ask, and someone will help.

41 posted on 05/01/2012 6:46:47 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field
You attempted to use a response I made to an article as some "evidence" that I believe that there is more than one way to salvation.

You have to understand that, when it involves me, you will be called out on your misrepresentations and lame attempts to "prove" you are right by posting a response I made without addressing the subject matter or context that the response was made to.

I didn't expect you to be able to refute the article for many reasons, first of which is the fact that you would be required to deal with Scripture that you have had to discard and deny to make your "doctrines" work.

Anyone who may be interested can go to the original post and read the article and come away not only with an understanding of how people will be saved during the Tribulation and the requirements God has for one holding on to their salvation during the Tribulation, but also with a clear understanding that your posts are simply not to be taken seriously.

42 posted on 05/02/2012 4:01:36 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta
The article in its error misidentifies just who “Israel” is in God's sight. Hence the full import of the prophecies of Israel's restoration are misunderstood.

For example, both Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies of the restoration of Israel and Judah foretold what would take place after the Jews returned from Babylon. The land would be filled, the temple rebuilt, etc. and these things did, in fact, occur.

But the N.T. makes the point that there was a larger and even more significant fulfillment of these prophecies involving not an earthly kingdom but the heavenly one.

It was on heavenly thrones that the apostles and others chosen would rule and act as kings and priests over the whole earth, not a small portion in the Middle East.(Rev. 20:4-7)

Another example of the authors misunderstanding of the Scriptures is the statement:

“Believing Gentiles cannot be incorporated into Israel because Paul says they are now part of a new structure—the new man.”

But Paul says exactly the opposite! In Romans 11:17-24 Paul uses the olive tree as an illustration. He says the natural olive tree, Israel, had branches lopped off due to lack of faith and that the Romans though of wild stock had been grafted in to become part of that tree.
If God was willing to lop off the natural branches for their lack of faith how much more so the Romans for lack of faith.
And should those natural branches, Israelites, show faith they could be grafted back in again.

Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the Jewish nation and given to a nation, spiritual Israel with its king/priests in heaven, producing its fruits.

The author of this article simply cannot bring forward a coherent understanding of whom God views as “Israel” or what His kingdom is.

43 posted on 05/02/2012 6:01:15 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta

Bookmark for later when I can pick myself up off the floor and respond with clarity and Scripture. I cannot believe some of the replies I’m reading here...


44 posted on 05/02/2012 6:23:43 AM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta
The article in its error misidentifies just who “Israel” is in God's sight. Hence the full import of the prophecies of Israel's restoration are misunderstood.

For example, both Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies of the restoration of Israel and Judah foretold what would take place after the Jews returned from Babylon. The land would be filled, the temple rebuilt, etc. and these things did, in fact, occur.

But the N.T. makes the point that there was a larger and even more significant fullfillment of these prophecies involving not an earthly kingdom but the heavenly one.

It was on heavenly thrones that the apostles and others chosen would rule and act as kings and priests over the whole earth, not a small portion in the Middle East.(Rev. 20:4-7)

Another example of the authors misunderstanding of the Scriptures is the statement:

“Believing Gentiles cannot be incorporated into Israel because Paul says they are now part of a new structure—the new man.”

But Paul says exactly the opposite! In Romans 11:17-24 Paul uses the olive tree as an illustration. He says the natural olive tree, Israel, had branches lopped off due to lack of faith and that the Romans though of wild stock had been grafted in to become part of that tree.
If God was willing to lop off the natural branches for their lack of faith how much more so the Romans for lack of faith.
And should those natural branches, Israelites, show faith they could be grafted back in again.

Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the Jewish nation and given to a nation, spiritual Israel with its king/priests in heaven, producing its fruits.

The author of this article simply cannot bring forward a coherent understanding of whom God views as “Israel” or what His kingdom is.

45 posted on 05/02/2012 6:26:29 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: count-your-change
The article in its error misidentifies just who “Israel” is in God's sight. Hence the full import of the prophecies of Israel's restoration are misunderstood.

It does? Well, let's just take a look at who Israel is in God's sight.

These facts about how God defines Israel tells us without a doubt that the Church has not replaced Israel. In addition, we have these Scriptures that tell us that the New Covenant was made with Israel, and the Church was added in by nothing but the mercy of God:

So we know, straight from the lips of God and without any doubt whatsoever, that Israel is a different entity than the Church, that God has different purposes for Israel, that He indeed does have future plans for Israel, that the New Covenant was intended for Israel first, and that God will absolutely redeem His people and they will come to Him for salvation.

Now we know who Israel is in God's sight. He has told us who Israel is in His sight with no room for misunderstanding and no room for deliberately lying about who Israel is in His sight.

For example, both Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies of the restoration of Israel and Judah foretold what would take place after the Jews returned from Babylon. The land would be filled, the temple rebuilt, etc. and these things did, in fact, occur.

God give Ezekiel an illustration of the future using two sticks. Ezekiel took two sticks, one representing Judah, and one representing the northern kingdom of Israel. God tells Ezekiel, ”join the sticks” together in his hand; these sticks represent the future union of the divided tribes under the name Israel. There will no longer two tribes but one nation, called “Israel”. The Israelites were taken captive by Assyria in 722 B.C., while Judah was taken captive in 605, 597 and 586 B.C. by Babylon. Now both tribes were in the same land, since Babylon defeated Assyria. In the future, the nation would be known as Israel. And, in 70AD, the Jews began the diaspora, in fulfillment of prophecy, for over 2000 years, and in the late 19th century, God began to bring His people back to the land He gave them, just as He said He was going to.

When they resettle the land of Israel, they would resettle it as one people. Only twice since the Babylonian captivity, did a Jewish nation exist, once during the Maccabean period (164-63 B.C.) and once in our day (1948- Current). Only in our day, did the Jewish kingdom have the name Israel, thus beginning to fulfill the words of Ezekiel written 2600-years ago.

It wasn't until 1948 that the prophecy of Ezekiel was fulfilled. The nation of Israel was reestablished, it was named Israel, and God continues to bring His people back from among the nations to the land that He gave them, and He continues to keep His promises that He made to them.

Since the second temple, built after the Babylonian captivity, was destroyed by the Romans, and God tells us that there will be a temple in place during the Tribulation in which the Antichrist will stand and declare Himself to be God, and there is not currently a temple in Israel, then we know that that prophecy has not been fulfilled but will be sometime in the future.

But the N.T. makes the point that there was a larger and even more significant fullfillment of these prophecies involving not an earthly kingdom but the heavenly one.

It was on heavenly thrones that the apostles and others chosen would rule and act as kings and priests over the whole earth, not a small portion in the Middle East.(Rev. 20:4-7)

This is a description of what John was shown in Heaven which will be in existence during the Tribulation. The verse then goes on to say that the Church will serve with Christ during his Millennial Kingdom on earth. We also know from Luke 1:32-33 that His 1000 year kingdom will be a literal, earthly kingdom, where Christ's throne will be in Jerusalem, and we know from Matthew 19:28 that the twelve Jewish apostles will rule the twelve tribes of Israel during the Millennial Kingdom.

All of this will take place in Jerusalem, which is in the Middle East.

Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the Jewish nation and given to a nation, spiritual Israel with its king/priests in heaven, producing its fruits.

The fact that the kingdom was taken away from the Jews and given to another nation, aka the Church, is a temporary condition, as the Church age will end at the Rapture. As we know from the Scriptures listed above, Israel will be purified and redeemed and saved and will go back to being what God originally intended them to be. He will write His law on their hearts, they will not have to be taught His law, and, unlike Gentiles during the Millennial Kingdom, there will not be one unsaved Jew.

The author of this article simply cannot bring forward a coherent understanding of whom God views as “Israel” or what His kingdom is

On the contrary, it is those who have to approach the Bible already deceived and enslaved to the demonic doctrine of replacement theology who have to twist Scripture to make it fit their false doctrines, and when that doesn't work, allegorize and spirualize the Scriptures, in direct disobedience to God, to try to make the Bible fit their false doctrines.

There is not one verse in the Bible that supports replacement theology, and replacement theologists have no problem denying the four-fifths of the Bible that detail God's future plans for His chosen, covenant people in order to attempt to force Scripture into validating the demonic teaching of replacement theology that they love.

It is replacement theologists who lie about Israel and what God's intentions toward His covenant nation are who don't have a coherent understanding about Israel.

46 posted on 05/02/2012 8:51:18 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta
“This is a description of what John was shown in Heaven which will be in existence during the Tribulation. The verse then goes on to say that the Church will serve with Christ during his Millennial Kingdom on earth. We also know from Luke 1:32-33 that His 1000 year kingdom will be a literal, earthly kingdom, where Christ's throne will be in Jerusalem, and we know from Matthew 19:28 that the twelve Jewish apostles will rule the twelve tribes of Israel during the Millennial Kingdom.

All of this will take place in Jerusalem, which is in the Middle East.”

Believing Christ's Kingdom of the Heavens to be an earthly kingdom was the mistake many made even amongst believers.

But the rulers, the king/priests were to rule from heaven, it was after all a Heavenly Kingdom Christ preached not a restoration of an earthly line of kings.

That being the case then the prophecies must be understood in that context.

47 posted on 05/02/2012 11:35:21 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: count-your-change
So you're denying the Scripture you were given that tells us that there will be a literal, physical 1000 year kingdom on this earth which Christ will be the ruler of and where He will rule from His throne in Jerusalem?

When God says:

“He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure: “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You, ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ” (Psalm 2:4-9)

Are you, at this time, denying those Scriptures? Are you, at this time, stating that God is lying, that there will be no literal, physical kingdom of Jesus Christ?

48 posted on 05/02/2012 11:54:17 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Bellflower

“I believe that many who have been brought into the Church are, unbeknown to themselves, actually children of the promise of Abraham, his and Jacob’s biological descendants. God has been recover(ing) them, only in a different way, into His Church.”

Wonderfully correct.


49 posted on 05/02/2012 1:24:06 PM PDT by Fithal the Wise
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta

Wrong assumption, Christ’s throne is heavenly. (Rev.3:21) As are the thrones of those king/priests who would rule over the earth. (Rev. 5:10)
The resurrected Jesus acts as a high priest and sits at he right hand of God. (Heb. 8:1, 10:12)

As Paul said in Gal. 3:26, “The Jerusalem above is free and she is our mother”. Thus he could say their citizenship was in heaven. (Phil. 3:20) Paul was going to be one of those heavenly kings to rule over the earth in a heavenly kingdom.


50 posted on 05/02/2012 2:07:31 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: count-your-change
Okay, so you went ahead and denied the Scripture. Since God doesn't make assumptions, but states facts, you denied the Scripture you were given. I'm not surprised; the only way your "doctrine" works is to deny Scripture.

God states another fact when He says

Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, the Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain.’ (Zechariah 8:3)

and

“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord.

Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. And the Lord will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem.” (Zechariah 2:10-12)

Those aren't assumptions either, they are facts, and they will happen.

Christ’s throne is heavenly. (Rev.3:21)

Until He returns to earth with His previously raptured Bride at the end of the Tribulation:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [d]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:11-16)

So we know from God that Jesus will return to earth, at the end of the Tribulation, with His Bride, and will begin His Millennial Kingdom. No assumptions there, just simple facts.

As are the thrones of those king/priests who would rule over the earth. (Rev. 5:10)

Yep, the Scripture does say that Jesus will have a literal, earthly kingdom and His Bride will rule that kingdom with Him.

The resurrected Jesus acts as a high priest and sits at he right hand of God. (Heb. 8:1, 10:12)

Jesus is at the right hand of God until He returns for His Kingdom:

The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, rule in the midst of Your enemies.” (Psalm 110, 1-2)

So we know that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God until His enemies are defeated at Armageddon and He returns to earth for His Millennial Kingdom.

Paul was going to be one of those heavenly kings to rule over the earth in a heavenly kingdom.

That's odd. When I look at Galatians 3:26, I see "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.".

Philippians 3:20 tells those who know Christ as Savior that our home is in Heaven as opposed to this earth. Since the Bible does not contradict itself, Philippians 3:20 does not negate the scores of Biblical passages that talk about Jesus Christ's literal, earthly one-thousand-year kingdom on earth.

51 posted on 05/02/2012 3:02:10 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
Christians did not "replace" Jews. God's family of believing Jews grew into all those who believe the Messiah came and conquered death and is God Himself.

That's not supersessionism. That's Christianity.

Or why be a Christian?

52 posted on 05/02/2012 5:41:55 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta
Over and over again Christ used the term “kingdom of the heavens” to describe his rule in the book of Matthew. Still many could get beyond the idea of A Messiah ruling from the city of Jerusalem.

This was a point Paul argued to the Hebrews. The Mount Zion that Christ was to rule from was the the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. (Heb. 12:22)

You quoted Rev. 19, surely you noticed that Christ and fellow judges wage war from heaven.
“14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses”

Your arguments that Christ would return to the city of Jerusalem (and what? leave the king/priests behind?) simply isn't supported in the Scriptures.

53 posted on 05/02/2012 6:03:05 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta; wmfights

BRAVA! BRAVA! HEAR! HEAR! Brilliantly stated! Encore!


54 posted on 05/02/2012 6:34:02 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
I believe the vehicle God uses to convert the Jews is the Tribulation.

Actually, I think it happens BEFORE that. Perhaps the Battle of Gog/Magog... The Temple is rebuilt in Holiness... the whole of Jerusalem is sanctified - The bells on the horses and the jugs for the water have the name of YHWH upon them... All of this, according to the Prophets, happens when the Temple is rebuilt... And the Temple IS THERE for Yeshua to enter into through the Eastern Gate after His foot touches down on the mount of olives!

And if that is so, That allows a great portion of Judah to participate in the rapture - How can YHWH allow a part of Yeshua's Bride to ride the lightning? It seems it will be the Left Behind of both Christian and Jew (by then ONE THING) that will be the Tribulation Saints...

I know that is weird, but it works... and it puts the Rapture mid-trib... living through the time of Jacob's Trouble, enduring the Antichrist, but not the wrath of YHWH. All the saints are with Yeshua when He comes to deliver that, and establish the throne of David!

55 posted on 05/02/2012 6:53:10 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: count-your-change
Over and over again Christ used the term “kingdom of the heavens” to describe his rule in the book of Matthew. Still many could get beyond the idea of A Messiah ruling from the city of Jerusalem.

God's kingdom at present is spiritual through those who know Him as Savior. But this conndition will end soon and Scripture is more than clear that there will be a literal, physical return of Christ to earth and He will set up a literal, physical one-thousand year kingdom on this earth.

And it doesn't matter how many times those who cling to man-made, false doctrines scream and wail and moan and cry about it and deny the Word of God. There will be a literal, physical, one-thousand year kingdom of Jesus Christ on this earth. He said He will have that kingdom on this earth, and it will happen.

Whether you like it or not. You have been given the Scriptures which proves that this will happen and the fact that you choose to discard and reject those Scriptures could not be more meaningless.

You quoted Rev. 19, surely you noticed that Christ and fellow judges wage war from heaven.

The book of Revelation is the accounting of a vision that the apostle John was given by Jesus Christ. Revelation 19 tells us about Christ's return to earth, with His Bride (And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.) at which time, when He gets to earth, He conducts war. This is the time when He puts an end to the Armageddon campaign, conducts the judgments of those unsaved who survived the Tribulation, and sets up His kingdom.

Revelation 19 says nothing about war being waged from Heaven.

Your arguments that Christ would return to the city of Jerusalem (and what? leave the king/priests behind?) simply isn't supported in the Scriptures.

You were given the Scriptures that state that Jesus Christ will rule a literal, physical, earthly kingdom from Jerusalem. If you don't understand those Scriptures, that's a spiritual problem; if you reject and deny those Scriptures, that's also a spiritual problem. The fact that you either don't understand what the passages I provided you say or you deliberately deny them is no one's problem but yours.

Here's some more Scripture you probably won't like:

From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do. (Isaiah 46:11)

So, when God says in Scripture that He is going to do something, He will do it, despite the most desperate wishes of those who don't like what He plans to do and despite their most desperate attempts to deny those Scriptures out of existence. There will be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth and Jesus will rule that kingdom from Jerusalem and there isn't a person alive who can stop that from happening.

And as for the kings/priests? Here is their future:

http://www.ldolphin.org/otpremill.html

56 posted on 05/03/2012 4:34:52 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: GiovannaNicoletta

You’ve raised many questions in my mind so I’ll seek your views on them.

So do you believe Christ will take up human form again so he can literally ride a white horse in battle?


57 posted on 05/03/2012 5:22:35 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: count-your-change
How do you know what "form" He "is in" now?

We know that when He was resurrected, and remained with the disciples for a time, He could be touched, He ate, He was considered by those around Him to be human.

We know that He ascended into Heaven in that exact form.

Is there any Scripture that tells us that He somehow changed when He got to Heaven? I don't know of any.

So we can probably safely know that He will return in the same "form" He left.

God gives us the account of what was said when Christ ascended:

The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God. 4Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:1-5)

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)

So based on what God's inerrant Scripture says, and without adding anything to it or taking anything away from it, I think we can know that Jesus won't have to "take up human form". I think we can know that He will be the same when He returns as He was when He ascended.

58 posted on 05/03/2012 5:31:58 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field
What am I to think, when I hear some dispensationalists say, that salvation by grace alone ends at some point, replaced by salvation by works?

If someone approaches a subject with a closed mind all they process is the information that supports their predetermined view.

59 posted on 05/03/2012 7:51:55 AM PDT by wmfights
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Eckleburg
Christians did not "replace" Jews.

We agree. ;-)

God's family of believing Jews grew into all those who believe the Messiah came and conquered death and is God Himself.

In the church age we call our brothers and sisters Christians.

However, why partially blind Israel and is this blinding permanent? We both read our Bibles regularly and have read Romans 11 closely.

60 posted on 05/03/2012 8:03:58 AM PDT by wmfights
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-109 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson